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France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

reuters.com

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Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#681

Post by flashyfaffe »

theturtletalks wrote: post #543
dpau wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last week I wanted to purchase a used item but discovered that, without warning or notification, Marketplace was deactivated from my Facebook account. My Facebook account is quite active, with posts, discussion in multiple groups, and hundreds of friends. I still have no clue as to what rule I triggered and no recourse to reactivate it. Now imagine that's my digital Libra bank account? No thanks.

That's a good point, but other companies do this without recourse. Paypal is the classic example. They will literally ban you overnight and hold your funds for months. Oh and forget knowing the reason, because revealing why you got banned would reveal too much about their filter algorithm. The key is to diversify where you buy and how you buy it so you're not dependent on any one company.

Agree with you with the necessity of diversification. The issue is not Facebook issuing its own crypto but rather the potential control we let it take over. I believe that the same reason related to control that an entity can people on people (combined with the new technology) helped to originate bitcoin. The need to ensure no one ( including governments) deciding people's life by manipulating own belongings (by tax or rates manipulation). That's a the same anarcho- libertarian logic approach here. Anyone should be able to decide whether or not putting your eggs in the same basket.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#682

Post by mehrdadn »

ahakki wrote: post #559
jeena wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in Sweden anymore, most of the lunch places in Gothenburg where I live don't allow payment by cache anymore. If you have money but not digital, you will go hungry nowadays.

This would never fly in Switzerland. You need to accept Swiss Franc Banknotes of any denomination as settlement for any monetary debt (this includes a purchase of a 1.- stick of gum paid for with a CHF 1000 Bill. there will be some arguing required for that one in practice, but the law is clear).

As I understand in the US a purchase is not the same thing as a debt, i.e. nobody has to accept any particular type of currency for a purchase, only for a debt. Is Switzerland really different here?

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#683

Post by Certhas »

blackbrokkoli wrote: post #225

I'm of course not familiar with the specific mindsets and the history of this decision, but I want to share a bit of cultural perspective from Germany that is so far not really considered in this comment section: Germany is very, very keen on preventing powerful entities from acting outside of regulation and similarly, if not more, on preventing a single entity to get in control of everything. This is largely due to…

Lage der Nation had a really good summary of Libra and summarized a lot of the concerns, especially on why this is not a case where you can let them do their thing, and regulate afterwards, when you've gathered some experience:

https://www.kuechenstud.io/lagedernation/2019/07/26/ldn150-p...

Of particular concern is the scale to which this can be bootstrapped by having the tech giants involved.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#684

Post by rohan_shah »

_xnmw wrote: post #653
doomjunky wrote: post #643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One key difference between a government issued currency and a distributed cryptocurrency is that the former is based on a promise and the latter is based on trust . A government issued currency is based on the promise [1] given by a state that this money must be accepted by everybody else. Everyone can enforce his rights by law. A distributed cryptocurrency is based on trust given mutually by the users. The trust rel…

It’s still “trust” in both cases. One must trust the power of the government making the promise, or rather the global system of governance.

Exactly. If a substantial amount of people stop trusting the "promissory state money", then the inflation will be uncontrollable (or not controllable by the state) and the state won't be able to give anything in return of their promissory notes.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#685

Post by repolfx »

unionpivo wrote: post #675
repolfx wrote: post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the rest of your points, but: Germans don't want uncontrolled groups accumulating power precisely because it could lead to a situation like Nazi Germany Uh huh. Really. Germans totally hate uncontrollable groups trying to take over Europe? Please spare me sanctimonious Germans claiming some sort of moral high ground they don't have. In fact from a British perspective it appears Germany has learned nothin…

Not everyone living in EU hate it as much as you do. As someone living in smaller country, we now have our voice heard more than before, and other benefits of EU far outweigh the downsides. > They are institutionally cynical about their own citizens, who they see deep down as basically being stupid sheep Yeah Trump and Johnson are so much better \s. Every country has politicians like that.

Actually they are much better! Trump ran on an explicitly populist platform ("I listen to you, the elites don't") and Johnson is currently staring down the threat of a jail sentence because he's trying to actually leave the EU, as voters requested. They are much more guided by what's popular with voters than EU leaders are.

And yes I know lots of people living in the EU think it's great. Lots of people living in the USSR thought it was great too, as can be seen from the opinion polls showing how many Russian think Stalin was their greatest leader. That doesn't change the nature of what these systems are.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#686

Post by wnkrshm »

repolfx wrote: post #671
wyattpeak wrote: post #616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original comment is about German attitudes towards the accumulation of power, which are a direct product of their experiences with Nazism. Germans don't want uncontrolled groups accumulating power precisely because it could lead to a situation like Nazi Germany. Once Godwin's law became a meme it outlived its usefulness. Yes, people tend to hyperbolically compare things to the Nazis. But the Nazis were a real thi…

I agree with the rest of your points, but: Germans don't want uncontrolled groups accumulating power precisely because it could lead to a situation like Nazi Germany Uh huh. Really. Germans totally hate uncontrollable groups trying to take over Europe? Please spare me sanctimonious Germans claiming some sort of moral high ground they don't have. In fact from a British perspective it appears Germany has learned nothin…

From my perspective I think the EU/UK talks have gone nowhere because the brexiteers didn't have any strategy at all. It boils down to playing chicken and thinking the rest of the EU will flinch at the threat of the UK cutting all ties, when it has been clear that the UK (under May and now Johnson) desperately wants those ties. But the UK is not willing (or politically able) to make any concessions for those - concessions that other states had to make before, to make the same deal. They're not just selected arbitrarily.

It's tragic really, since the EU cannot move because it's bound to the will of the member states and their people - and the UK cannot move because it's bound to the will of its people (by which I mean the people of Northern Ireland, not the referendum).

Now the UK press seemingly wants people to believe that the "the EU" can just decide on a deal, independent of the interests of its member states. And that sadly will burn itself into the minds of many Brits (at least the leavers) as a story that the EU bullied the UK without any reason, just to be mean.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#687

Post by Certhas »

smsm42 wrote: post #552
blackbrokkoli wrote: post #225

I'm of course not familiar with the specific mindsets and the history of this decision, but I want to share a bit of cultural perspective from Germany that is so far not really considered in this comment section: Germany is very, very keen on preventing powerful entities from acting outside of regulation and similarly, if not more, on preventing a single entity to get in control of everything. This is largely due to…

You sound like somebody tried to force you to trade in Libra and German government prevented it. But Libra is not money - unless you choose to trade in it and use it as medium of exchange, and nobody so far tried to make dealing with it involuntary. So what exactly German government saved you from?

It saved me from having to live in a world with an overly powerful, not democratically legitimized financial entity. Given the power cooperations already yield this is a _good thing_ in my view.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#688

Post by unionpivo »

repolfx wrote: post #685
unionpivo wrote: post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone living in EU hate it as much as you do. As someone living in smaller country, we now have our voice heard more than before, and other benefits of EU far outweigh the downsides. > They are institutionally cynical about their own citizens, who they see deep down as basically being stupid sheep Yeah Trump and Johnson are so much better \s. Every country has politicians like that.

Actually they are much better! Trump ran on an explicitly populist platform ("I listen to you, the elites don't") and Johnson is currently staring down the threat of a jail sentence because he's trying to actually leave the EU, as voters requested. They are much more guided by what's popular with voters than EU leaders are. And yes I know lots of people living in the EU think it's great. Lots of people living in the…

What Trump ran on and what Trump does are two different things.

And Boris (among many others), more or less engineered the whole brexit so he could gain power, if that fails he is done. He is doing it because he bet his whole career on it, and has nothing to loose.

And as someone who lived (although only for about 12 years of my life) behind iron curtain. I can assure you most people didn't think it was ok, and we are paying attention so we don't end up in the same situation again.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#689

Post by htfu »

auslander wrote: post #617
black_puppydog wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is exactly why you can't risk to have anything even remotely approaching a monopoly in any part of the systems involved in making transactions. Which is why I (also as a German) am very happy that we have a competitive (read: better in literally every way) alternative to credit cards, plus a strong cash culture. Oh and for completeness' sake: if paypal (and libra for that matter) are not regulated according to…

> you can't risk to have anything even remotely approaching a monopoly in any part of the systems involved in making transactions. AFAIK US is a monopoly for international money transfer. You just cannot bypass a US intermediary bank and US Dollar conversion.

You're likely thinking of the dollar being "unavoidable" as a unit of settlement due to its status as main world reserve currency, but even that's metaphorical and in any case a state & institutional level thing.

Just think about it - how would that even work?

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#690

Post by Dylan16807 »

majewsky wrote: post #390
Dylan16807 wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have to? What happens if a random business accepts them for payment, and uses them for purchases at other accepting businesses?

IANAL, but the association giving out the vouchers would probably sue for fraud, since the merchant acts like a member of the association even though they are not.

That is a very very strange thing to consider fraud! Imagine applying the same logic to someone that will trade their wares for baseball cards.
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