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Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

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Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#681

This reads a lot like the founding of the Federal Reserve: > [The Federal Reserve] had several key components, including a central bank with a Washington-based headquarters and fifteen branches located throughout the U.S. in geographically strategic locations, and a uniform elastic currency based on gold and commercial paper. 1. Geographically dispersed 2. Value elastic but secured by assets 3. Controlled by a small…

Can we just call it the global reserve?

I prefer the Facebook Reserve as it reflects its largely private corporate roots.

Update: Considering Zuckerberg holds a majority of the voting shares in Facebook, I don't think calling it The Zuckerberg Reserve and Zuckbucks is at all unfair.

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#682
post #635

What I really don't get is the regulatory aspect. They are creating a financial derivative asset/instrument. To be moved across the borders. In what freaking universe will the regulators not be all over it with endless KYC/ML rules?

There aren’t enough public details yet but I think the “blockchain” part is really just between all of the partners, not between the users. So when user A in the US sends to user B in Pakistan, the activity is really only between the two parties which converted the local currencies from the end users. That wouldn’t be particular different from user A sending a Western Union payment to user B in Pakistan. Conceivably…

Thats right, its not distributed like bitcoin but all of the nodes are "trusted" by each other and the block chain itself would only be accessible for users and you would not be able to add a node without being a massive corporation which invests and joins their consortium.

No idea how new companies are supposed to rise with these players securing their monopoly like this.

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#683
post #649
post #557

This is an interesting story and I would like to learn more about libra-coin. Unfortunately I think hackernews has a strong anti-facebook bias that is making the opinions here nearly universally one sided. I think we can say three things fairly uncontroversially in favor of this 1. The world could use an online independent currency 2. Adding stability to blockchain currencies and having that work on a large scale is…

> 1. The world could use an online independent currency Maybe, but "Facebook" and "independent" hardly go together. > Unlike government issued currencies, any monopoly or control facebook derives isn't done through force True, but the measure of control average person has over facebook is also close to zero. With government, you at least have courts, elections, Constitution finally... it is usually hard to go against…

Agree. A world currency in the hands of a few corporations is arguably worse than any government issued fiat. It will be more efficient and pervasive in both good and bad ways. [Edit: spelling]

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#684
post #648
post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Libra ends up with 10x more users than all other cryptocurrencies combined, who are you to say what the point is? The existing cryptocurrency space has spent a decade building something that a relatively small number of people are really passionate about but it's the opposite of what the masses want.

In my opinion, the main thing holding back cryptocurrency is scalability. They are working on that. The other thing is just social momentum. Popularity and merit are two completely different things. It waxes and wanes. The masses will adopt anything that is convenient and popular (regardless of whether its really great or not). Look at the #1 Billboard song right now. "Old Town Road". This is the most popular song. I…

You're really making a value judgment on how the world works in general based on Old Town Road?

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#685
post #557

This is an interesting story and I would like to learn more about libra-coin. Unfortunately I think hackernews has a strong anti-facebook bias that is making the opinions here nearly universally one sided. I think we can say three things fairly uncontroversially in favor of this 1. The world could use an online independent currency 2. Adding stability to blockchain currencies and having that work on a large scale is…

> a strong anti-facebook bias I can tell you from own experience that Facebook's dark patterns are incredibly frustrating at best, and at worst come off as malicious to the end-user. For example, I refuse to download the Facebook app. When using the mobile website, it often shows me as having new messages. Clicking the notification then redirects me to download the app. Requesting the desktop site, however, shows no…

No, I think you misunderstood the notifications. I did at first. Basically Facebook shows you when someone read your messages. This shows up as a notification in messenger mobile but not in the web version. There are others too but I don’t remember the exact circumstances.

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#686
post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. Libra coin is backed by Visa. The whole point of cryptocurrency to avoid having to go through middlemen like Visa or even require banks. This is a way for the intermediaries to cash in on the cryptocurrency hype and squash it before cryptocurrency payments become mainstream. They want to insert their own thing that looks like a cryptocurrency but will allow them to continue to profit from and control the exc…

> The whole point of cryptocurrency to avoid having to go through middlemen like Visa or even require banks. "Whole point" is speaking for a whole lot of people who may not share your views. Certainly circumventing banks was an important founding concept, but circumventing _central_ banks is arguably much closer to the goal. There's no reason why credit cards shouldn't exist denominated in Bitcoin -- they provide eas…

Presumably people wouldn't want a cryptocurrency as plutocratic and centralized as Bitcoin has become. Some lessons were learned with BTC as an experiment, and as we can see there's evolution taking place and plenty of more advanced alternatives are making prior software like bitcoin obsolete.

It's especially troubling how centralized the minting and mining has become. And it's easy to forget there's the problem with energy consumption related to the PoW algorithm eating almost 1% of the entire world's energy simply for an accounting database.

The major reason you don't see payment processors dealing with cryptocurrencies is because the major usecase for most cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin, Monereo, and Ethereum is money laundering.

  One important point: if we actually include all 7 billion 
  people on the earth, most of whom have zero BTC or 
  Ethereum, the Gini coefficient is essentially 0.99+. And  
  if we just include all balances, we include many dust 
  balances which would again put the Gini coefficient at 
  0.99+. Thus, we need some kind of threshold here. The 
  imperfect threshold we picked was the Gini coefficient 
  among accounts with ≥185 BTC per address, and ≥2477 ETH 
  per address. So this is the distribution of ownership 
  among the Bitcoin and Ethereum rich with $500k as of July 
  2017.


  In what kind of situation would a thresholded metric like 
  this be interesting? Perhaps in a scenario similar to the 
  ongoing IRS Coinbase issue, where the IRS is seeking 
  information on all holders with balances >$20,000. 
  Conceptualized in terms of an attack, a high Gini 
  coefficient would mean that a government would only need 
  to round up a few large holders in order to acquire a 
  large percentage of outstanding cryptocurrency — and with 
  it the ability to tank the price.

  With that said, two points. First, while one would not 
  want a Gini coefficient of exactly 1.0 for BTC or ETH (as 
  then only one person would have all of the digital 
  currency, and no one would have an incentive to help boost 
  the network), in practice it appears that a very high 
  level of wealth centralization is still compatible with 
  the operation of a decentralized protocol. Second, as we 
  show below, we think the Nakamoto coefficient is a better 
  metric than the Gini coefficient for measuring holder 
  concentration in particular as it obviates the issue of 
  arbitrarily choosing a threshold.


  ...However, the maximum Gini coefficient has one obvious 
  issue: while a high value tracks with our intuitive notion 
  of a “more centralized” system, the fact that each Gini 
  coefficient is restricted to a 0–1 scale means that it 
  does not directly measure the number of individuals or 
  entities required to compromise a system.


  Specifically, for a given blockchain suppose you have a 
  subsystem of exchanges with 1000 actors with a Gini 
  coefficient of 0.8, and another subsystem of 10 miners 
  with a Gini coefficient of 0.7. It may turn out that 
  compromising only 3 miners rather than 57 exchanges may be 
  sufficient to compromise this system, which would mean the 
  maximum Gini coefficient would have pointed to exchanges 
  rather than miners as the decentralization bottleneck.


  Conversely, if one considers “number of distinct countries 
  with substantial mining capacity” an essential subsystem, 
  then the minimum Nakamoto coefficient for Bitcoin would 
  again be 1, as the compromise of China (in the sense of a 
  Chinese government crackdown on mining) would result in 
  >51% of mining being compromised.
  
  - Balaji S. Srinivasan (the CTO of Coinbase) 

-

https://news.earn.com/quantifying-decentralization-e39db233c...

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#687
post #557

This is an interesting story and I would like to learn more about libra-coin. Unfortunately I think hackernews has a strong anti-facebook bias that is making the opinions here nearly universally one sided. I think we can say three things fairly uncontroversially in favor of this 1. The world could use an online independent currency 2. Adding stability to blockchain currencies and having that work on a large scale is…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#688
post #557

This is an interesting story and I would like to learn more about libra-coin. Unfortunately I think hackernews has a strong anti-facebook bias that is making the opinions here nearly universally one sided. I think we can say three things fairly uncontroversially in favor of this 1. The world could use an online independent currency 2. Adding stability to blockchain currencies and having that work on a large scale is…

Unless I misunderstood, it's not independent as it's backed by fiat reserves.

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#689

Again: A ledger that is not decentralized is a bank database, not a cryptocurrency. As near as I can tell, Zuckbucks are nothing more than the JPMorganCryptocurrency but with a bigger consortium. The only difference seems to be who is given write privileges to the database.

Can you explain why the ledger being run by ~27 different entities is NOT decentralized? How many governing entities (or validators; or people running blockchain servers) do you need before it qualifies as decentralized? I'm wondering about your definitions, not defending Facebook here.

> Can you explain why the ledger being run by ~27 different entities is NOT decentralized?

Many financial clearing houses are mutualised across many more members. It’s still a centralised clearing house.

Facebook is launching a shadow bank. It’s an old and recurring idea. In 2007 it was hedge funds, in 2019 it’s Facebook. Same schtick, new players.

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#690
post #560

Facebook has so much money that one can't wonder what their angle with this. I can only imagine they want to know exactly what you spend money on so they can better target ads.

I think there's just such a huge opportunity to drive sales through messenger, fb, etc with low-friction payments. They already have the 'best' targeted advertising. They just want to extend their platform all the way through to actual sales. Then they can justify a larger cut than with just the ads. They've certainly tried payments and money-transfers before. This isn't entirely new territory. It's just very country…

This sounds like an anti-trust problem waiting to happen. Far too much vertical integration.
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