Live data from Hacker News

Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

nytimes.com

681–690 of 789 posts

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting how this gets framed differently nowadays. 20 years ago, before social media, there was no assumption that everyone has a fundamental right to be able to broadcast their ideas using others' platforms. Since publication was more resource-intensive, the default for most media was to not publish things, and deciding that someone's ideas didn't merit publication wasn't seen as a violation of any great mo…

It’s interesting, and weird when you consider that the people who seem to be railing against this supposed censorship share significant overlap in the Venn diagram of people who complain about a growing sense of entitlement among others. Ironically at some point these same people decided that they deserve to be published wherever they want, and anything else is censorship. Presumably these are people who felt even ha…

> in the Venn diagram

The one you just made up from whole cloth?

> Honestly though, I have another theory.

Do you have an actual position, too?

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#682
post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Posting like this is unacceptable on HN. Nazi evil doesn't entitle you to pour acid all over the container here. Regardless of how right you are, venting bile and taunting others helps nothing and is destructive of everything we're trying to achieve here, such as hopefully have a place for discussion that isn't flaming shit. We need experienced users like you to help build that, instead of breaking the site guideline…

Your key flaw, and HN's key flaw -- and to be fair, one shared by a lot of other people! -- is the pursuit of civility as an end in itself. Horrendously evil people can accomplish their goals while publicly conducting themselves with perfect civility, as history has taught us again and again. And HN's stance is that that's OK, because all that really matters is they're civil about it.

This isn't the first time you've been told this. It's not going to be the last time you'll be told this. And I know telling you this isn't going to change anything, but I have to try anyway. We know now beyond any doubt (and a legion of Cassandras were telling us long ago) just how easily social-media sites (and yes, HN is one) can turn into instruments and enablers of radicalization despite openly enforcing "civility".

You know what the solution is. You know, on some level, that civility isn't an end in itself; you know that the actual ends to which people use civility as a means matter. You know some of those ends are very, very bad. And you know how to recognize the people doing it. You also hold in your hand the power to do something about it.

Abandon the civility-at-any-cost policy. Stop being an enabler for the stuff I've been responding to in this thread. Take it from an "experienced user" who's had to learn this the hard way when moderating elsewhere. Or, in keeping with the season, treat this as a visitation by a spirit who warns you of the chain you're winding about yourself, link by link, and change it while you still can.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#683

I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…

> On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The government, soapboxes, homes and places of business that are happy to have them. Freedom of Speech is not the right to be heard. If people don't like what you have to say, or how you are saying it, they are free to walk away. If you don't like what someone is doing in your place of business, you can also throw…

> loud ranting racist

Yeah.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18750037

> They, however, seem to want to be where their ideas are not wanted[1].

How are mobs following people they don't like around, seeking to destroy their livelihoods not much worse than "vote brigading"?

And on what planet aren't those mobs using vote brigading on top of that?

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#684
post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if being black was a choice you would be okay with businesses discriminating against black people unless they chose to be a different race?

In this hypothetical universe, is it as easy to change one's race as it is to change one's clothes? If so, it seems no different than "no shirt, no shoes, no service." But then a world in which race was a choice would be so different from our own that one would wonder whether racial discrimination would even exist, or what "black" would even mean.

[deleted]

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#685
post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is immunodeficiency treatment at all related to deplatforming? Viruses aren't thinking human beings. > The Civil Rights movement did not enagage in deplatforming. Many of them explicitly acknowledged that their opponents also deserve the ability to speak. It was often the civil Rights movement itself that was subject to deplatforming. My point is that the type of reasoning you used here would lead you to draw b…

One can argue when these terms were initially coined. But we do have hard data on when they became prevalent in the public mind. Look at the Google trends for "deplatforming"[1], "no platforming"[2] and "alt right"[3]. "No platforming" had some blips starting in the late 2000s, but begins rising significantly in 2015, "deplatforming" in January of 2016, and "alt right" in august of 2016. There is evidence to the clai…

> One can argue when these terms were initially coined. But we do have hard data on when they became prevalent in the public mind. Look at the Google trends for "deplatforming"[1], "no platforming"[2] and "alt right"[3]. "No platforming" had some blips starting in the late 2000s, but begins rising significantly in 2015, "deplatforming" in January of 2016, and "alt right" in august of 2016. There is evidence to the claim that deplatforming (or at least, widespread interesting in deplatofrming or "no platforming") preceded widespread interest in the alt-right.

The terms themselves don't seem particularly relevant. The idea of deplatforming people has been around and practiced for a while. The alt-right dates back to at least Gamergate, and its roots in neoreaction, TRP, MGTOW, /pol/, etc can be traced back much further. I don't think Google trends really proves much here.

> Yes, but as I stated multiple times by now the key limitation here is that they only looked at the material on the same site. Site X bans Y (whether in full or in only some subforums). You observe a reduction of Y on the site. That's not evidence that this action reduced Y in society as a whole. There is a causal relationship between deplatforming and reduction of the deplatformed view on said platform. Nobody is disagreeing with that - most people would likely read such a statement and think "no kidding, Sherlock".

It's not tautological that that should happen. Remember, they're looking at the prevalence of that view elsewhere. It's not at all obvious that it should be the case that when you ban the 'Fat People Hate' subreddit, fat-shaming content elsewhere on reddit decreases.

It would be very hard to prove this effect on general social sentiment even for a site as big as reddit, because society is so much larger. Facebook might be big enough to have a measurable effect on society writ large, but their policing mechanism, and the internal organizational structure of Facebook doesn't really lend itself to these sorts of experiments.

> For example, pointing to the fact that when Reddit banned racist subreddits racist content on other subreddits were reduced is proof that banning racist subreddits reduced racist content on Reddit. This is not at all surprising, and is something most would call obvious. But to portray this as proof that banning racist subreddits reduces racist content in society as a whole is a very large misrepresentation.

It didn't just reduce the aggregate racist content on reddit. It reduced the aggregate racist content above and beyond the literal content that was removed. In other words, when they banned r/CoonTown, r/politics got less racist. That is not at all an obvious consequence.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#686
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for posting the actual content. Too often I think the actual content of the statements is left out of these things for political reasons (on both sides, depending on the context). I don't agree with all of Patreon's decisions on stuff like this, but this one seems reasonable, now that I can see the actual text.

This transcript shows Patreons malintent rather than alleviate our concerns with it, because they cut out essential context and in Matt Christiansens call with Patreon they admit the real cause was that they don't like his brand [1]. I challenge you to find racism and anti-semitic content on his channel. Transcript: "exactly how you describe black people acting is the impression I get dealing with y'all", the last wo…

Hmm, you seem to be right. I guess even more context was necessary here.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#687
post #47

If you've branded yourself as being politically incorrect, isn't this the kind of conflict and publicity you strive to achieve? I'm getting a little tired of people who've made a career saying what you "can't say on TV" and then pretending to be surprised when their content gets pulled.

So in your world, if your labeled politically incorrect by the NYT or friends you should just lay down and die?

He has labeled himself as such. My comment is clearly about self proclaimed shock jocks looking for controvercy and then complaining as if that wasn't the point to begin with.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#688

I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…

>Centralization is the real evil, here. Why are we giving companies and people the right to silence vast amounts of voices and opinions on random whims?

This is likely a factor in why there aren't any serious "politically neutral" competitors to Patreon. Even if you could limit your attack surface in terms of third party services like Cloudflare you couldn't get by without a payment processor.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#689
I don’t know, in Germany, Spain, Italy and probably most other EU countries we have rules that forbid various types of hate speech. For instance in Italy you can be charged for spreading “fascist ideas”. Not exactly sure if US has that? That would provide an objective framework for these discussions. I do think Patreon has a brand to defend and they do what’s right for them, but then they should be much more clear and upfront about it. I don’t think banning individuals is ok, I think updating your policies, communicating them clearly and then banning those violating them with upfront anticipation would be the correct way here.

Also, looking from outside, challenging various ideas in US today seems to be tabu. For instance, nobody dares to even slightly criticize the current feminist movement/s. I don’t know, no movement I have studied in human history has been 100% right. But again, if Patreon does not want anybody to criticize feminism they can be upfront about it, put it clearly in their policies and that would be ok, they own their platform after all.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#690

I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…

> On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The government, soapboxes, homes and places of business that are happy to have them. Freedom of Speech is not the right to be heard. If people don't like what you have to say, or how you are saying it, they are free to walk away. If you don't like what someone is doing in your place of business, you can also throw…

How do you then defend Patreon hosting radical leftists calling for political violence on their platform, and not taking it down after its reported? But banning a viewpoint opponent of social justice for what seems to be clearly political reasons?

[1] https://www.patreon.com/intlantifadefence

[2] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/antifa-dom...

[3] https://www.patreon.com/chapotraphouse

[4] https://www.reddit.com/r/ChapoTrapHouse/comments/9k14nf/why_...

[5] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_violence

How do you defend them employing someone that is a public supporter of the domestic terrorist organization antifa?

[6] http://www.returnofkings.com/125075/patreon-employee-aaron-r...

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

Post reply on HN