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Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
681–690 of 1001 posts
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#682All i got from the memo, besides the echo chamber part, which google, and others managed to prove almost immediately, was that the author thinks there are biological differences between men and women, which lead to women being less interested in the field, thus being under-represented, and that google's sexist practices won't change that, only make people resent the diversity hires. Was i reading the wrong memo? Beca…
> the author said women are less suited to being good engineers... Where was that stated?
DAMORE: "I'm simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership."
EDIT: also https://youtu.be/TN1vEfqHGro?t=30m13s
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#683Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am well aware of my inabilities to tackle this issue properly, so ... I don't write a big document about it and circulate it. Discretion is an issue here too. If you are not capable of addressing an issue in a productive manner, then don't, especially if it's not even related to your job. James was hired as an engineer to work on engineering stuff; he wasn't hired as a sociologist to work on diversity stuff. He mad…
He was like it or not thrust into it though by the choices google has made, or appeared to make. When your hiring demographics do not roughly match graduation demographics you are not being honest. There is every appearance that google is discriminating against males in their efforts to search out women. This might be best for google overall, but he is a male which means it is not in his personal favor.
> When your hiring demographics do not roughly match graduation demographics you are not being honest.
Or maybe the graduation demographics are biased and Google is just trying to correct them?
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#684Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even…
My main criticism of the memo has been the external discussion it provoked. Like anyone who's been following the story I obviously have my own feelings on it. But, what seems to be missing is the social context to judge if he was out of line in how he delivered his memo or simply because he delivered it at all.
I don't know how often memos of this nature circulate around google and that's important context because a lot of the discussion really seems to boil down to "How do we feel that this guy got fired". Do other employees send out memos that also contemplate diversity in tech/google with similar length and calls to action? If so, do those employees send out their messages via the same channels that this employee sent out his memo? Without understanding more about the social context the employee was operating in a lot of necessary context is missing imo.
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#685Earlier quoted context omitted.
The thoughts of one twenty-something engineer posted to an internal message board (for these kinds of discussions I might add) does not create a hostile workplace or harm Google in any way. Basically, in any other context we expect people who have vastly differing views to be able to put them aside and work together. The only exception to this rule seems to be around leftist issues, where if you disagree you are out…
> You would expect, for example, the Jewish people and the Islamic people at a company to work together. No one wrote a memo claiming that Google hires too many Jews who don't meet the same quality bar due to diversity efforts. No one wrote a memo claiming Google needs to have mandatory anti-terrorist training because they've recruited a lot of Muslims lately (putting aside the fact that white christian terrorists ar…
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Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#686Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can't speak to Google's hiring policy, but affirmative action indeed gives preference to underrepresented minorities at the expense of more qualified people on the basis of gender/race. If you want quantitative data, just look at test scores of underrepresented minorities vs white/Asian men at competitive high schools and universities. You can sugar coat it all you want, but it's still discrimination on the basis o…
Sure, specifically race-related Affirmative Action programs may often (but not always) provide entrance to a minority who would on paper test lower than a non-minority. And this is intentional AND desirable. Consider it a long-term investment, or a direct attempt to break out of a feedback-loop. The historical shadow of racism is long, and even though the individual actors today (you, me) may not be explicitly racist…
> in all cases, the party that gets rejected due to these policies is explicitly the party that statistically has the most opportunity in the ecosystem at large.
You are possibly discriminating people unfairly. The evidence on causes of the representation gap is not conclusive - i.e. we don't know beyond reasonable doubt it's nothing but white male privilege. Difference in interests - be it due to nature or nurture - seem to exist and could at least partially explain the gap.
I'm opposed to all discrimination - and as long as you can't prove beyond reasonable doubt that the enacted discrimination only counters privilege and nothing more you don't have a leg to stand on if your overall position is equality.
> But I'm not going to join anyone's pity party over it either
You dismiss a group speaking up against discrimination as whiners even though the evidence that would allow you to do so is inconclusive. This seems like an unreasonable position to take.
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#687Earlier quoted context omitted.
He was like it or not thrust into it though by the choices google has made, or appeared to make. When your hiring demographics do not roughly match graduation demographics you are not being honest. There is every appearance that google is discriminating against males in their efforts to search out women. This might be best for google overall, but he is a male which means it is not in his personal favor.
> When your hiring demographics do not roughly match graduation demographics you are not being honest. Or maybe the graduation demographics are biased and Google is just trying to correct them?
How is Google correcting biased graduation demographics via hiring practices?
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#688Earlier quoted context omitted.
The thoughts of one twenty-something engineer posted to an internal message board (for these kinds of discussions I might add) does not create a hostile workplace or harm Google in any way. Basically, in any other context we expect people who have vastly differing views to be able to put them aside and work together. The only exception to this rule seems to be around leftist issues, where if you disagree you are out…
> You would expect, for example, the Jewish people and the Islamic people at a company to work together. No one wrote a memo claiming that Google hires too many Jews who don't meet the same quality bar due to diversity efforts. No one wrote a memo claiming Google needs to have mandatory anti-terrorist training because they've recruited a lot of Muslims lately (putting aside the fact that white christian terrorists ar…
>(putting aside the fact that white christian terrorists are far more likely to be your cause of death in the USA).
This is not true. Even ignoring the 3,000 people killed in the twin towers, the Orlando Pulse nightclub shooting alone killed more people than all right-wing attacks since 9/11/2001 combined. And that includes non-Christian attackers. And such things as neo-Nazis killing pedophiles in prison.
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#689Earlier quoted context omitted.
Then the correct way to handle it is to drop another refutational evidence bomb attacking his primary points instead of picking the low hanging fruit of claiming it's "too confrontational," "poorly written," "naive," or whatever other secondary problems exist (this is aside from wilfully misrepresenting his claims, which is definitely a bigger problem). Plenty of far more aggressive articles and essays have been writ…
It's very difficult to convince people who aren't interested in being convinced. There are too many people out there with a different, maybe wrong, opinion. Why waste your time with those who don't seem genuinely interested in opposing evidence? I didn't find his tone aggressive but he didn't at all seem interested in having a discussion. If I remember correctly he didn't rebuke any opposing points, let alone present…
You have to remember that this was a rough memo that he never meant to spread as widely as it has been. More like "here's some ideas I've been kicking around and some evidence for them, someone want to take a look and see what I'm missing or mistaken about?"
This was originally just posted to the Google Skeptics group, with the implication that it would be (fairly) contested and debated.
People keep presenting it as a "manifesto" but that's a term that Gizmodo used, not him. I really would like to have seen what would have come from it being fairly critiqued by his peers and edited until it was presentable to the public (if that's even possible).
Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo
#690Google having diversity hiring policy was what made "diversity hire" impressions among employees.
Damore talking about it did not cause "diversity hire" impressions.
Google shot the messenger in this case.