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“Let her speak please”

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Re: “Let her speak please”

#681

Post by Chris2048 »

zzzeek wrote: post #600
Chris2048 wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the same sense there either is a victim, or not a victim; then it either is subjective, or isn't. There isn't "subjective for some" - there is just differing, and mutually exclusive opinion - a situation in which one party must be wrong.

"subjective for some" takes place when one particular party fails to look at a situation objectively. They are relying on subjective opinion and they are wrong.

In which case it's sarcastic, not literal.

Why not state directly what you believe to be the case?

Just say "that isn't the case, and you only believe otherwise because you are not a victim", them defend that claim.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#682

Post by openasocket »

cr0sh wrote: post #626
openasocket wrote: post #219

I'm suprised no one has brought up that men talking over women is a well-studied phenomenon in childhood and adolescence. Girls tend to contribute less to discussions or conversations in mixed gender settings than they do in single-gender settings. My parents even noticed it when my brother and I moved out of the house, and suddenly my little sister was a lot more talkative at the dinner table. The exact mechanism or…

> The exact mechanism or reason for this is not well understood. I have nothing to back this up, but my personal opinion is that the reason is our patriarchal society. It permeates our shared culture to such an extent, that most people don't see it. Women and girls even participate in it, and use it to perpetuate it. It is everywhere. Literally everywhere. From the moment of birth to the moment of death, you are imme…

I completely agree, this is a consequence of the patriarchy pretty much by definition. The smoking gun is that girls become more talkative specifically when men are absent, so girls aren't just less talkative in general, it's specifically a reaction to the presence of boys. By "exact mechanism" I meant more specifically why the phenomenon happens. Are women encouraged to be quiet when men are talking, or are men encouraged to interrupt women, or both? In a truly egalitarian society, would men interrupt less or would women interrupt more?

Re: “Let her speak please”

#683

Post by pbhjpbhj »

cooper12 wrote: post #500
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or the flagging is because these issues are trawled over here regularly and never really go anywhere, and people feel there are already better fora to discuss those issues?

> never really go anywhere Better to sweep them under the rug and pretend they don't exist then. > there are already better fora Such as? This is a tech forum, one of places which currently has a lot of issues with sexism and discrimination. It should be one of the first places addressing it. What's this alternate forum? Somewhere out of sight and out of mind I'm sure. The fact that my comment got flagged is just tes…

This is a tech forum, in part, as you suggest. So surely avoiding issues which are primarily social and don't have a specific bearing on tech is reasonable.

The other fora I see as better would be one's concerned with sex discrimination, probably IRL places.

If someone posts on HN about a library someone wrote, a hack they did, obscure details of a back-end, a new startup .. the sex of the people involved is very rarely even mentioned.

I'd sooner just focus on the reported actions rather than the sex of the people performing those actions.

Do you really think HN is going to be a useful forum to advance chances in social policies and/or sexual politics? Perhaps we can flip things and ask you why you consider this to be a good forum for that?

Re: “Let her speak please”

#684

Post by mclightning »

masondixon wrote: post #389

Everyone reading this please, please, please watch the video. It is ridiculously not what it seems. I read the comments here, and the FB post and after watching it in full context you get such a different perspective. And it is just as the lady on the panelist has said in her comment. The moderator is trying to simplify things for the audience. After introducing her he tries to create an analogy as to how to think ab…

Exactly. Seems nobody cares to take the time to watch it.

Besides, Jim Holt appeared to bring her into the conversation beforehand in other parts of the video. All other male scientist jump into the conversation on their own. Jim Holt brings her into conversation 2 times proactively.

What an age we are living in...

Re: “Let her speak please”

#685

Post by qb45 »

mpweiher wrote: post #672
watwut wrote: post #667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Excellent. Too many women don't, in my experience. In my personal experience, I find women not standing up for themselves in the situation at hand, and then complaining about it for ages after. That complaining about it is pushing back. And you whine about it right now.

Did you even understand that sentence? Let me clear it up. The "not standing up for themselves" is in the actual situation , against the actual person they need to stand up against . The "complaining afterward" is after the situation has passed, and complaining to a completely different person not involved in the original interaction. That is the exact opposite of "standing up for yourself", and it is also not "pushi…

They don't stand up for themselves because they are often outnumbered and/or outmuscled and habitually don't believe that we have their back, for various reasons.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#686

Post by wccrawford »

throw_this_away wrote: post #423
wccrawford wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had many of the same thoughts. To the point that I think I've become more racist because of them. Isn't that what racism is? Treating someone different because of their skin color? I've instead resolved to think and worry less about it. I know I don't treat people different because of skin color, and that's good enough. If I'm rude to someone and they think it's race or gender related, that's their problem, not…

I don't know your friend so I can't speak to directly to her specific behaviors, but I know a lot of people like your friend and I think it might be helpful for you if you considered her thoughts from a different perspective - Perhaps you may not be personally 'racist', and perhaps you don't feel 'racist', but there is enough objective science based evidence to conclude that we live in a society that highly favors wh…

I'm not denying that society is tilted in my favor. That's been clear to me since I was young and had minority scholarships explained to me.

I'm not talking about that, though. I'm saying that she literally says, "All white people are racist." And she means it.

She also literally says that there's no such thing as racism towards white people because it's not racism if that society isn't tilted in their favor.

Yes, I know what "institutional racism" is. I also know what plain old "racism" is. It probably doesn't affect me nearly as much as it does any random minority, but that doesn't mean it isn't racism.

And any racism contributes to racism in general. You can't treat someone like shit and then expect them to treat you better. It's foolish.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#687

Post by throwaway99951 »

komali2 wrote: post #398
throwaway99951 wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here's a thought, treat them as people and not "a black" or "a woman". You don't have to ingratiate yourself in the fear that some random person will think you're a racist. I think you need to read through this thread. People are assigning motivations to the host: "He is sexist" . Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. I'm sure he'd say that he is not, but plenty of people here are saying he is. Is it crazy to think the same…

An easy solution is to give less fucks what other people think and just try not to be a dick.

I concur.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#688

Post by jancsika »

jccalhoun wrote: post #510
jancsika wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I shouldn't have put "citations" in parentheses. That's what I'm most interested in-- recommended readings from people who study this stuff for a living.

Off the top of my head I'm not thinking of anything specific but it is related to the intentional fallacy and thinking along the lines of The Death of the Author as well as more anthro/socio stuff by people like Erving Goffman. I'm thinking of his Presentation of Self in Everyday Life where he talks about things in terms of acting and live theater.

Thanks, jccalhoun.

I'm really looking for a citation of something much more fundamental.

If I wanted to assess the security of Firefox, it would be inane to try to do so by assessing each bug individually. Instead, I could ask on HN, "What books should I read to begin learning how to assess the security of Firefox?" And even though I'd probably get a lot of responses trying to clarify what I mean by "security", I'd certainly get some solid reference materials that outline current approaches to assessing security that are based on the best research available.

Now suppose I want to assess sexism in the sciences in academia. It would be inane to try to do so by assessing each alleged case of sexism individually. What books should I read to assess sexism in academia? I'd like to hear about reference books (or articles) that outline current approaches to assessing sexism in academia that are based on the best research available.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#689

Post by cooper12 »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #683
cooper12 wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> never really go anywhere Better to sweep them under the rug and pretend they don't exist then. > there are already better fora Such as? This is a tech forum, one of places which currently has a lot of issues with sexism and discrimination. It should be one of the first places addressing it. What's this alternate forum? Somewhere out of sight and out of mind I'm sure. The fact that my comment got flagged is just tes…

This is a tech forum, in part, as you suggest. So surely avoiding issues which are primarily social and don't have a specific bearing on tech is reasonable. The other fora I see as better would be one's concerned with sex discrimination, probably IRL places. If someone posts on HN about a library someone wrote, a hack they did, obscure details of a back-end, a new startup .. the sex of the people involved is very rar…

Just because it's a tech forum, doesn't mean it's immune from social issues. This fetishization of "objectivity" (like there's such a thing) is one of the reasons tech has such a problem with it. I wish we could all be emotionless robots who only process facts and figures, but reality doesn't work that way and we all have our implicit or explicit biases and the world is not a just place. Also by your logic things like Net Neutrality or UBI would have no place on HN since they're related to politics and society, yet here they are. What you really mean is "please don't post things that are inconvenient to me and make me uncomfortable". (you're also being willfully ignorant of the context of this post if you think gender had nothing to do with it) Don't mind me, please do go back to jerking off over the latest Go rewrite or Javascript framework.

As for your retort, the best forum to address issues is right where they happen. I notice casual dismissal of sexism being an issue here all the time. Your suggestion is like saying that the black rights movement should have only held speeches at the NAACP instead of coordinating sit-ins and marches. You bring your message to the people who need it, whether they like it or not. Of course they'll try to dismiss it saying they don't like your tone or approach, but that's been a constant tactic used against progress for centuries, nothing new.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#690

Post by Mz »

mpweiher wrote: post #661
Mz wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I gather, it does get done to women more than to men. From my perspective, an even bigger problem is that women are more expected to just take it. Having read the piece, it is by a woman who spoke up and said "Let her speak, please" and that's fine. But I have mixed feelings about the title of this piece and how it looks before you read it, because white knighting is a big problem for women. Men coming to t…

> women are more expected to just take it. Or women, in general, just don't want the bother. > giving the guys push back Excellent. Too many women don't, in my experience. In my personal experience, I find women not standing up for themselves in the situation at hand, and then complaining about it for ages after. > highly likely to get me banned, no matter how reasonable I am about it. That seems unlikely. If you are…

Or women, in general, just don't want the bother.

Yeah, that must be why blacks got lynched in the Deep South. They just couldn't be bothered to stand up for themselves when the KKK came for them.

/s

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