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Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

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Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#671

Post by garte »

TrappedInCorner wrote: post #663
garte wrote: post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This does not make sense. How can you differentiate between "good" migrants (apparently you yourself) and "bad" ones? Shouldn't you remove yourself because you're a migrant to increase the quality of life for the "natives"?

And to the fallacy of my argument you are hinting at, it truly is one of the difficulties. I think as a migrant your contribution should be to assimilate and assist with the country's interests. You must not be a freeloader. If the country wants to get rid of migrants, then thats it, they will stamp you out. Welcome to reality. In the meanwhile I will do my best, like everyone else should, to be a 'good migrant', whi…

From a logical standpoint there really is only one rational step you can take: you have to leave because you are a migrant.

And that's exactly where all of this thinking falls apart: in an equal, democratic society no group should be able to decide who's a good or a bad citizen. There's only the laws of the country that should count and everyone has to obey.

You should soften up your idea of "migration" because there is no inane biological quality in humans that make them good or bad.

99% of "immigration problems" are because of poverty and inequality (both too little or too much money can influence behaviour) and not because of some sort of gene that makes human behave badly.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#672

Post by egorfine »

kakacik wrote: post #318
Schiendelman wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just the state - it's your neighbors pushing the same building restrictions as the rest of the developed world, where people say "I don't want another neighbor next to me", which results in too few apartments for even the existing people's children...

You should check Geneva then - they are building apartment buildings like crazy in past 5 years. Too much if you ask me - in very center, almost every small park or green spot is now 6 story concrete building. Only the biggest protected parks are untouched. City is visibly and permanently degrading into concrete field. Weirdly schizophrenic move - they try to keep pushing bike lanes everywhere, even where not safe to…

Geneva had an extreme shortage of housing while there were plots of land perfectly suitable for construction but older people willing to sacrifice their kids' future for the sake of today's comfort and for one more year of ignoring the world around them. This problem is no unique to Geneva though.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#673

Post by joxdosba »

mike_hearn wrote: post #664
joxdosba wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of those is an island, the other is a landlocked country that would quite literally starve to death if the EU decided to stop facilitating its access to international markets. Switzerland exists purely at the mercy of the EU, it lacks the military capabilities to fight its way out to the sea and force an alternate reality. The day Switzerland is able to conquer the north of Italy is the day they get to meaningful…

Uh, that escalated fast! I really hope you're not European with threats like that. EU tried all this bullshit with the UK too. Threatening to cut off electricity supplies and so on. The mask really fell, but in the end they didn't do it, they didn't even respect their own supposed red lines like cooperation on academic research. They meekly invited the UK back into their academic collaboration a few years later despi…

What threats? I was simply pointing out the undeniable fact that Switzerland is utterly dependent on the benevolence of the EU.

The EU has unlimited ability to punish Switzerland with extreme precision and at a low cost, Switzerland has no meaningful ability to go tit-for-tat even at a very low level.

> At any rate, there's nothing about being an island that automatically stops a crazy genocidal EU trying to starve another country. If I recall history correctly, less than 100 years ago a big European country was attempting to starve Britain to death by systematically sinking its cargo convoys. Then just a few decades later east Germany was trying to starve Berlin by shutting down rail links. Note: both attempts failed.

Yes, you’ve succeeded at explaining why it makes a difference that Britain is an island. At the very extreme end, the EU would actually have to go to war with them instead of just issuing a NOTAM and sending a few cop cars to monitor border crossings.

Also, FWIW, at no point during Brexit has Switzerland been a better partner for the EU than the UK has.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#674

Post by kovariantenkak »

contagiousflow wrote: post #142
kuboble wrote: post #132

Being in Switzerland it looks to me like this is a really tough referendum. Both sides have very good arguments and from the side it looks like either way the Switzerland has to give up some asoects of its high quality of life. If the initiative succeeds, Switzerland will get a large hit from the cancelation of a lot of bilateral agreements with the EU. If the population exceeds 10M then the current rail and road inf…

Can you explain how adding frequency to the train network will not work to compensate higher ridership?

In many areas the train network is already at capacity.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#675

Post by elektrontamer »

garte wrote: post #671
TrappedInCorner wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And to the fallacy of my argument you are hinting at, it truly is one of the difficulties. I think as a migrant your contribution should be to assimilate and assist with the country's interests. You must not be a freeloader. If the country wants to get rid of migrants, then thats it, they will stamp you out. Welcome to reality. In the meanwhile I will do my best, like everyone else should, to be a 'good migrant', whi…

From a logical standpoint there really is only one rational step you can take: you have to leave because you are a migrant. And that's exactly where all of this thinking falls apart: in an equal, democratic society no group should be able to decide who's a good or a bad citizen. There's only the laws of the country that should count and everyone has to obey. You should soften up your idea of "migration" because there…

> 99% of "immigration problems" are because of poverty and inequality

That's just made up claim there's no evidence to support this. Even if it were true it's not the taxpayers responsibility to import all the degenerate murderers and rapists from all over the world in the hopes of civilizing them.

Why should someone from a developed country agree to give up their safety and wealth to run this ridiculous and deadly experiment?

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#676

Post by azan_ »

epolanski wrote: post #289
philipallstar wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There were so many things that I saw growing up as relatively solid but I just happened to grow up in an era of European unity and American primacy European unity works well in a world of mostly-stable populations. Having mass migrations from large, relatively empty countries, to pretty full ones, is going to make the full ones increasingly expensive to make housing for, to power, and to water.

Where are the full ones? Working age population is decreasing in Europe. It's only really major cities that suffer under development, and even among them it's just some, not the majority. And despite all the bitching, even extra-EU immigrants are a huge resource for most European countries. In Italy e.g. extra-EU immigrants contribute to 14% of taxes and receive less than 2% of benefits, as many of them come here as…

Extra-EU immigrants are not uniform group. E.g. in Denmark non-western migrants at some point are (weakly) positive net contributors to public finances, but MENAPT immigrants are on avg. net negative their entire life. https://www.economist.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=1424,quality=8...

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#677

Post by whazor »

mike_hearn wrote: post #656
cromka wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not Schengen. It's Free Movement, the core principle of EEA. You're not in EEA, you don't get free access to EU market. This would be catastrophic to Swiss economy.

It wasn't catastrophic to the British economy. Why would Switzerland be so different?

Most British people think Brexit is a failure.

For Switzerland it would be significantly worse since they are surrounded by Germany, France, Italy, and Austria. So all trucks would be stopped at border. Food prices are already super expensive and this would make it worse.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#678

Post by panick21_ »

iioiio wrote: post #543
stouset wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

Gromer gangs were white just as often, but instead of addressing the problem evaluating it correctly and responding right wing extremists instead focused only the immigrants didnt give a single shit about the actual abuse and made it all about leaving the EU and in general promoting ethnic violence against all braun people. Literal riots.

And of course never talk about immigrant woman that get abused who gives a fuck about them.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#679

Post by khriss »

rayiner wrote: post #541
breakyerself wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no such requirement to hire proportional amounts of every ethnicity. There are requirements not to discriminate. Which isn't the same thing. When companies do make an effort to give everyone a fair shot there's a tendency for mediocre white men to lose out to more qualified minorities. The companies get better employees and more diverse perspectives. Then those white men feel spurned. They imagine they weren'…

Can you show me where the “mediocre white men” are on this chart?: https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/med-1.png?x97... Are the “mediocre white men” the ones with a 27-29 MCAT/3.4-3.59 GPA, who have a 21% chance of admission to medical school whereas a hispanic student in that same range has a 61% chance? Are those the “mediocre white men” you’re talking about? > The companies get … more diverse perspectiv…

> Can you show me where the “mediocre white men” are on this chart?

I think you will find that they tend to be at home, according to this graph https://www.ussc.gov/research/research-reports/2023-demograp....

From the report 'Specifically, Black males received sentences 13.4 percent longer, and Hispanic males received sentences 11.2 percent longer, than White males'

So, based on your own logic, you would argue for higher prison sentences for whites? It's all well and good to whine about 'discrimination' in one narrow area, but few have the courage to oppose discrimination when it benefits them.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#680

Post by Argonaut998 »

Gud wrote: post #622
Argonaut998 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Swiss ruling class don’t have as much disdain for their populace. It will only end up that way if the Swiss people will it. A lot of the UK’s problems were a result of the EU being vindictive as well. The EU won’t act vindictively because they aren’t in the EU.

What “ruling class”? Switzerland is a direct democracy.

On paper
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