Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional • Hacker News Board

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#671

Post by Gibbon1 » Tue, Mar 10, 2026, 8:25 PM UTC

furyg3 wrote: post #581

sowbug wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consistent, low-impact enforcement is better at preventing unwanted behavior than the rare and severe but also capricious enforcement performed by human police. It can also give permission for unwanted behavior. Cf. the Haifa study, where the rate of late pickups increased when daycares added a fine. One explanation is the fine turned a complex moral obligation into an ordinary financial transaction.

I grew up in Fremont, CA, which pioneered the use of red-light cameras and terrible red-light camera practices (e.g. shortening yellow light times to increase revenue and giving a cut of the fines to the companies installing cameras). I hated cameras, the idea of speed cameras felt like big brother, and the basic principal of attributing a violation to a car and not a person (and thus requiring a person to rat out th…

I don't have a phrase to describe this concept. But it's when we blame one thing for a problem caused by another. Because placing the blame where is belongs is inconvenient.

You create a transport system where you're mixing incompatible modes of transport and carnage is what you get. What I see is instead of placing the blame on that everyone wants to place the blame on someone anyone else based on whatever moral anxiety they have.

Consider some people are drunks, you create a system where they have to drive you get drunk drivers. Don't want a bar walking distance from your quiet suburban neighborhood, again drunk drivers. Zoning that separates businesses and stores from low density housing. Driving, accidents. Mix pedestrian, bicycle, bus and car traffic, you get carnage.

No one really wants to blame the system and spend money to fix it. So blaming other individuals is what we do.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#672

Post by TulliusCicero » Tue, Mar 10, 2026, 8:35 PM UTC

cucumber3732842 wrote: post #577

TulliusCicero wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of which are an affront to people's rights. Rights are not unlimited. You don't have some inherent human right to ignore building codes, or to retain full custody of your child in the event of a divorce.

A reasonably median person doing reasonably median things (so like within a couple standard deviations) has a right to be free from low effort harassment by the state at the unilateral whim of its agents. In the US this is codified across several of the amendments in the bill of rights. That means the building inspector can't just waltz into your home uninvited, ICE can't kick in your door because your maid is brown…

You're being very vague here. If you agree that rights are not unlimited and it's okay to have common sense property restrictions like building codes, then what's the fundamental problem with red light cameras? What is your actual objection here?

> the government can't just put up cameras and start dragnet fining people for rules that only really exist on paper

The hell? Do you think "don't run red lights" is a rule that "only exists on paper"? You realize that if a cop sees you run a red light, they're definitely pulling you over, right?

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#673

Post by smsm42 » Tue, Mar 10, 2026, 9:40 PM UTC

jan_g wrote: post #539

smsm42 wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the speeding ticket, if the police officer stops you, you'd get a ticket and would sign it, thus ensuring you were there. Or, if you refuse, the police officer would testify in court (if you would ask for a court hearing) that they saw you behind the wheel (and, likely now, you'd also be on bodycam). That would likely be enough evidence - which is why you probably don't want to go to court, because the judge woul…

I meant speeding cameras, where a system OCRs your license plate and you receive a fine after a month or even two months. Fine being monetary + points, depending on how fast you drove. Police officers measuring speed have become quite rare, at least here at my location (EU country). While speeding cameras are becoming quite common, especially in towns/cities and on the highways.

TBH, if those became legally invalid, I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep. There's a huge potential for abuse in these things, and their deterrent value is minimal. Especially in a heavily heterogenuos country like the US, where each municipality can have their own rules and their own courts. Sometimes these thing turn into literal highway robbery.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#674

Post by smsm42 » Tue, Mar 10, 2026, 9:43 PM UTC

LorenPechtel wrote: post #448

smsm42 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, keeping this would be a dangerous precedent. If the state can presume you're guilty in a traffic case, why not extend it to other cases? Stuff like that is routinely used in legal arguments, "we are doing X so why can't we do Y which is essentially the same?" So say they'd go for "we have your phone located within the vicinity of where murder is committed, now prove you're not a murderer!" or "your license plac…

Yup. Camel's noses should always be shot. Otherwise they creep in more and more. Some examples that come to mind: Look how the exception for searches at border crossings has expanded. The use of actions against licenses for behavior that has nothing to do with the license. The use of permits to get companies to do things only marginally related to the purpose of the permit. The encouragement of universities to expel…

You can add using banks as a leverage to suppress legal but "undesirable" activities - see Operation Choke Point.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#675

Post by paulddraper » Tue, Mar 10, 2026, 10:01 PM UTC

cucumber3732842 wrote: post #334

paulddraper wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Criminal offenses are punishable by incarceration. Civil offenses are not. --- Mild speeding, no seatbelt, broken taillight are civil. DUIs, reckless driving, hit-and-run are criminal. All vehicular offenses, but different punishments. --- Unauthorized immigration to the US is NOT punishable by incarceration. (It can result in deportation to the nation of origin.)

>Criminal offenses are punishable by incarceration. And what happens if you don't pay civil (or criminal) fines? A bench warrant gets issued and you get arrested. And if you get a contempt charge in all this guess where you can go? The only "real difference" between a criminal offense where they "can" jail you but usually just fine you is procedural. I would rather catch a bullshit DUI than have a local building comm…

> The only "real difference" between a criminal offense where they "can" jail you but usually just fine you is procedural.

While you can be jailed for disobeying a court order, it's self-imposed arrest. You are released upon compliance.

That is different from incarceration, for which you continue to serve the sentence even when the original crime is not repeated.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#676

Post by chupchap » Tue, Mar 10, 2026, 10:46 PM UTC

db48x wrote: post #404

chupchap wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Australia you will get a fine and demerit points for speeding or for running through a red light. The points don't go away even if you pay the fine. If you go through a year without infractions, one point will be taken off. I think that's a fair system. More details here [ https://www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/demerit... ] and here [ https://www.primelawyers.com.au/traffic-law/speeding-offence... ]…

Right, many other countries let you point the finger at someone else. The problem is that in the US the government is not legally allowed to even issue a ticket unless they can prove that the person they are prosecuting is the guilty party. Merely being the owner of the car is not enough.

Being the registered owner makes the person responsible. The owner can state it being stolen, or driven by someone else as valid reasons

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#677

Post by elliottkember » Tue, Mar 10, 2026, 11:21 PM UTC

db48x wrote: post #643

elliottkember wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there is a distinction. But it’s irrelevant in this case because you can be ticketed for either. The speeding ticket goes to the registered owner and there are no demerit points as there is no proof of driver identity.

No, there is a difference. Parking tickets are civil infractions that can only result in a fine (or in some cases a tow, but let’s not get lost in the weeds). Running a red light, on the other hand, is a moving violation committed by the _driver_ specifically, not the owner of the vehicle. Moving violations can result in criminal penalties. Sending a ticket to the owner of the vehicle and then making them defend them…

I’m not European. Many countries have speed cameras.

It differs how you’re caught. We treat a red light camera or speed camera violation as an infringement offence, like parking. If you’re pulled over, you can have your license suspended or be charged with reckless driving on the spot, because they know who you are.

There’s no case, and no guilt, just a penalty. It’s not about guilt but responsibility. You’re responsible for the car when it’s registered to you.

If you want an analogue, try carpool lane tickets. Same thing.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#678

Post by ImPostingOnHN » Tue, Mar 10, 2026, 11:27 PM UTC

joshuamorton wrote: post #669

ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tha owner is ultimately civily liable if the vehicle is parked in a way that it shouldn't be. Extending that same civil liability to the active operation, as opposed to only the consequences of active operation, seems perfectly reasonable. As this judgement reveals, such a suggestion is patently unreasonable , for the reasons listed in the judgement

Having read the order, it doesn't really justify the central claim, that these are criminal, and in my opinion a lot of the context cuts against that (the liability being only a fine and some other things).

That is a fair view to hold as a prior. Indeed, the judge took that context into account when judging that it was a criminal matter. Other states which do things differently might have received a different judgement based on their own context.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#679

Post by db48x » Wed, Mar 11, 2026, 1:04 AM UTC

pixl97 wrote: post #657

db48x wrote: post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many areas in the USA actually have lots of roundabouts, and people there have figured them out just fine.

Texas for example must have too much lead in the water because people seem to chronically get them wrong. Indiana drivers seem to much better in general with a lower incident rate of "omg that guy almost hit me". With this said roundabouts that service a fixed area, such as a neighborhood without much cross traffic seem fine in general. Whereas roundabouts in areas that pick up new traffic are far more prone to incid…

Anecdotes are meaningless. I’ve driven in Texas where there were roundabouts and it wasn’t ever a problem.

Don’t forget that at a roundabout the risk of injury from unexpected behavior by other drivers is _lower_ than at a signalized intersection. There’s a good reason why the injury rate goes down wherever they are built.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#680

Post by DiogenesKynikos » Wed, Mar 11, 2026, 2:48 AM UTC

matheusmoreira wrote: post #663

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason is that it increases traffic safety. It's even possible to set the cameras up in such a way that they only store data when a traffic violation occurs. That would address the surveillance issue. I have a strong sense that the primary objection people have to red light cameras is that they don't like getting caught running red lights, and that the surveillance argument is a rationalization, not the real obje…

Automated traffic law enforcement is surveillance. The fact it's limited in scope and functionality doesn't matter. It's still surveillance. All surveillance increases safety. The cost is freedom. Do you trust humans with the ability to judge the situation and the freedom to decide to run a red light if they think it's safe? Or do you surveil every intersection and punish all infractions regardless of conditions or t…

> Do you trust humans with the ability to judge the situation and the freedom to decide to run a red light if they think it's safe?

Absolutely not.

> For people like me, it's a matter of basic human dignity. I want to be a human with the capacity for judgement and the power to act on it.

Your human dignity does not require you to be able to run red lights when you think it's okay.

This is libertarian ideology taken to the extreme.