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Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

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Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#671
post #668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't love "words mean things" and winced after I typed it, but I think we both understand what I meant by it. My contention is that we did not in fact see thousands of noncombatants injured. I went into some pretty serious depth on this point elsewhere on the thread. I think, for what it's worth, that I can pretty easily make the argument that Ukraine is a genocide and Gaza is not. In fact, I could say that about…

I understand we won’t come to an agreement here, but I wanted to respond to two of your points: 1. Re: the term genocide, do you know why Palestinians have been insisting on this specific word to be used? Because genocidal intent was clearly communicated from virtually day 1, and was backed by actions to prove this intent. Cabinet members were calling Palestinians “human animals” and “amalek” for God’s sake - and tha…

Let me say first of all: super chill response and I really appreciate that.

On point (1), I've got reason to question the claims of genocidal intent that get bandied about in these kinds of conversations. Yair Rosenberg wrote a piece for The Atlantic debunking one of the most frequently cited "amalek" claims. It's easy to find people on either side of the conflict espousing genocidal views, but harder to map specific actions to realistically genocidal intent (especially when the views are ascribed to people with no decisionmaking authority over how the campaign is being waged).

I hate having to be so hedgy but I'll do it anyways: none of that is to say that the Gaza campaign was waged ethically or with meaningful concern for civilian life, and I fervently hope many of its architects end up imprisoned for their roles in it. But that's a cards-on-the-table statement, not a clinical assessment.

On point (2) about Ukraine: Russian decisionmakers at the highest level have repudiated the existence of Ukrainian ethnicity; Russia has deliberately --- in ways I don't think map cleanly to how the IAF has prosecuted the war in Gaza --- targeted civilian populations (Bucha is an obvious example), and, most damningly, Russia embarked on a campaign of family separation and coerced adoption with the specific intent of disrupting Ukraining ethnicity.

You point out that Israel wants to "cleanse" the land (call it Greater Israel, from the Jordan river and including the Gaza strip) of Palestinians. I'm not as sure about that, but I can stipulate to it. That by itself does not constitute genocide!† (Ethnic cleansing? A crime against humanity? Very possibly!) Genocide as a concept does not encompass any link between blood and soil.

It really pisses Palestinian advocates off to hear this, and I get why, but there is by rights already a Palestinian state in the Levant: it's called Jordan, where Palestinians have, at multiple points over the last 50 years, made up a majority of the resident population. Similarly, if we're doing comparative statecraft, Assadist Syria successfully cleansed itself of its concentrated Palestinian population, over just the last 10-15 years. See how often you see Palestinian advocates make claims about Yarmouk camp, though. You start to understand why advocates for Israel (I am not one of those) are jaded about this whole thing.

You get a similar thing about "apartheid", a term I'm more comfortable using with Israel, from people who correctly observe that Israeli Arab citizens, of whom there are a great many, have vastly more rights than black Africans had under apartheid, to the point where the term makes more sense applied to other larger, more salient ethnic divides elsewhere in the world. But like, preemptively: I'm with you, it's effectively an apartheid system in the West Bank.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#672
post #670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@Cyph0n, if you think Israel's approach led to too much collateral damage, why don't you propose a solution that would have led to less collateral damage while still taking the Hezbollah leaders out of action? I bet you won't do this, because I think we can ultimately agree it wasn't possible for Israel to take all these men out of action simultaneously and minimize collateral damage much beyond what it did. I think…

Nice deflection. All I need to care about as a lowly SWE is that this attack injured thousands of Lebanese civilians. This is the real world, not a movie or simulated war game. And I would wager that you would immediately condemn such a barbaric attack if the sides were reversed.

So you weren't able to propose a solution that would have led to less collateral damage because no such solution exists. You know it. I know it. Everyone reading this knows it.

Instead of answering directly you make a comment about deflection, and insist an obvious falsehood (the attack injured thousands of Lebanese civilians) is all you care to believe. On this, we agree. It's all you care to believe, the evidence be damned!

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#673
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46221729 sounds like cross-examining to me. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46221631 is not flagged. That might be because we'd already turned off flags on it (I can't remember). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46221972 I agree should not be flagged and I've unflagged it.

The point isn't so much to litigate each flagged comment, just to highlight how pervasive the flag abuse problem is. And of course, when the flag abusers 'defect' and gain some utility, it is only rational for the 'victims' to themselves defect from the civil conversation and start to abuse flags. In threads that are, unfortunately, adversarial, abusing the flag button is a stable Nash equilibrium. I think it's a shi…

A better approach IMO would be to simply turn off comments entirely on controversial topics.

Whether flagging is available or not, nothing is gained in such polarized discussions. Of course it would be best if we could lower that polarization over time, but I am pretty skeptical that discussion boards & comments are a mechanism that will achieve that. I suspect their actual effect is to increase it.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no useful discussion to be had on such topics as war in Isreal, Donald Trump (be it "stolen elections", or foreign politics), or Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Nobody will ever think "That was a well-reasoned argument I now believe war crimes were, or were not, committed". The best thing to do on posts like this is avoid reading them, or flag them. It feels like there's an obviously correct side to most of t…

> There are no useful discussion to be had on such topics I think there are useful discussions to be had on these topics, and in fact, we must have those discussions. The issue is that, if we want to do so productively and a comment section is the only venue for us to speak to each other, then we must be extremely patient with others and ourselves and reflect on what they say and what we say (i.e., discuss in good fa…

Comment sections are not the only venue for us to speak to each other and we must be able to consider that they might actually make the problem worse.

Other venues - real life, talking to people in person - telephones, audio & video calling, talking to people - writing op-eds, blog posts, sub-stack newsletters - podcasts

None of these of course produce the dopamine hit of seeing your likes/retweets/karma go up and that of your opponents going down though, so we would have to give that up. I think that's a good deal.

We can call internet comment infrastructure "community" but that doesn't mean it actually is one or functions to enhance community.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I'm only adding to the choir of people telling you "of course," since I'm directly the person you're responding to it still feels worth saying: yes, of course, if America and Venezuela went to war, it's completely legal for Venezuela to attempt to kill the U.S. President. As an American, I certainly hope they would fail. But do I think it's legal? Yes: it's a targeted strike on the leader of an enemy country th…

Well you need to actually think about what you're saying here. Suppose for example China/Israel/whoever is the first to invent really, really great drones (like the size of a bird or even a bumblebee) that are lethal. So then China could, at any point, call up the US president and say "Look there's a drone in the room with you right now. Shut down all your nuclear facilities or I hereby declare war and you're dead wi…

I don't care whether the citizens of Israel would think it's legal. It's not terrorism if you're at war to attack enemy combatants or their leaders, and that goes for any side in a war: whether you're Israel, Iran, China, America, Russia, Ukraine, whoever. That's just how war goes. There's no point to the term "terrorism" if it just means killing enemy combatants or leaders: it's duplicative of the term "war." What do you think war entails?

If your opponent has way better weapons technology than you: well, it sucks to be on the losing side. But you are, and that's how war goes sometimes. That's what happened to Japan, and the Mayans. If one side has guns and the other has obsidian spears, there's no law that the side with guns has to drop them on the ground because it's unfair to the stone-age side.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I'm only adding to the choir of people telling you "of course," since I'm directly the person you're responding to it still feels worth saying: yes, of course, if America and Venezuela went to war, it's completely legal for Venezuela to attempt to kill the U.S. President. As an American, I certainly hope they would fail. But do I think it's legal? Yes: it's a targeted strike on the leader of an enemy country th…

Well you need to actually think about what you're saying here. Suppose for example China/Israel/whoever is the first to invent really, really great drones (like the size of a bird or even a bumblebee) that are lethal. So then China could, at any point, call up the US president and say "Look there's a drone in the room with you right now. Shut down all your nuclear facilities or I hereby declare war and you're dead wi…

actuall hezbollah did crash drone into netanyahy private residence (scratched windows) and iran tried to blow up secretary of defense with ied.

there was 0 discussion about "legit, legal and fair". the only discussion that took place it's that security measures need to be improved to prevent things like this in future.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#677
post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

screaming "genocide" like this has become a cliched thought terminating cliche.

Well, if that stops your thinking, maybe ponder the illegality of the israeli occupation of palestinian territory then. The israelis must withdraw their people from palestinian territories occupied in -67 and ought to pay reparations for both the occupation and destruction of property, as well as allow refugees to either return to their homes or pay reparations to them. Unless they do this immediately the internation…

After losing WW2 Germany lost about 25% of its land. When Israel was created by UN mandate the Palestinians were offered their own sovereign state, something they never had, but instead chose to try to destroy Israel to get all of the land. They lost and are never going to get that land back. Your entire comment is completely deranged.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#678

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This operation was one of the most targeted military operations known in warfare. International law doesn't hold Hezbollah accountable for example. That is the reality today.

Hezbollah's own actions are significantly more targeted and have resulted in significantly fewer civilian casualties.

This is completely false. They fired thousands of missiles directly at civilians. 60,000 people had to evacuate. The only reason they didn't kill thousands of people is because the Iron Dome system is so good.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hezbollah's own actions are significantly more targeted They literally fire unguided rockets in the general direction of populated areas.

They did targeted strikes on military facilities. See for yourself: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46226028

[flagged]

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's equally true in Israel, where Hezbollah fired tens of thousands of rockets indiscriminately, killing, among other things, a Druze children's soccer team in the Golan Heights. You can read this on Amnesty (no friend of Israel's) if you want. Again: it's hard to understand where you could getting this notion that Hezbollah attacks are highly targeted from. That is anything but their operational signature.

I posted plenty of videos in my other reply to you of Hezbollah attacks on Israel. They’re very clearly targeted.

They are targeted at Israel civilians.
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