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Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

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Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#671

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

qcnguy wrote: post #437
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and yet ... that's not what the case you referenced says at all. Justia's own summary, from your link: > Even if there is no discriminatory intent, an employer may not use a job requirement that functionally excludes members of a certain race if it has no relation to measuring performance of job duties. Testing or measuring procedures cannot be determinative in employment decisions unless they have some connection to…

They worked at a power plant, a place where dumb mistakes can cause explosions and kill people. The power plant wasn't racist and hired blacks into the labor department, but because it was just manual labor that department paid worse than the other more technical departments. When SCOTUS found against the power company they sent a clear message that merely being a technical, safety-critical job was an insufficient ba…

> When SCOTUS found against the power company they sent a clear message that merely being a technical, safety-critical job was an insufficient basis to establish a need to test people for intelligence.

That's your interpretation. The court regarded the test used the power company as unrelated to the demands of the job. You're welcome to disagree with the court about that (as the company probably did), but don't misrepresent their actual position.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#672

Post by [deleted] »

snowwrestler wrote: post #663
jswelker wrote: post #102

Higher ed is like employer based health insurance in that they are both weird path dependent historical accidents. People want cheap healthcare, and it got shoehorned into an odd employer fringe benefit system that really is not at all related healthcare in any intrinsic way. People want job training, and it got shoehorned into extra departments at liberal arts universities intended as aristocrat finishing schools. J…

People don’t want “cheap healthcare,” people want to be healthy. And people don’t want “job training,” people want to be educated and have a fulfilling life. Of course college looks too expensive if it is just “job training.” But that is not what college is. College proved its immense value first , and then because of its obvious value, employers started looking for it. But you’ve let the cart get in front of the hor…

[deleted]

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#673

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

lurk2 wrote: post #396
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are being honest, you're just being pedantic. The fact that everyone pays taxes which ultimately pay for e.g. socialized health care/insurance or college-level education doesn't alter the fact that for the person receiving it, said good comes with no invoice, which is a conventional meaning of "free". The fact that paying taxes is required of all members of the community that organizes, collects and distributes…

> The fact that paying taxes is required of all members of the community that organizes, collects and distributes resources in this way doesn't change the relationship between the person and the service at the point of service. That’s irrelevant to the point the grandparent comment was making, which is that these resources don’t just fall out of the sky and that “I got it for free and I liked getting it for free,” is…

Anybody who imagines that the use of the term "free" in connection these resources/services means that they fall out of the sky should stay as far away from public policy decisions as possible.

I went to school (K-BS(c)) in the UK, and it was entirely normal to talk about that as "free", despite the fact that in dozens of conversations my parents would discuss the way in which their local taxes funded all of it, including my university education. People are not that stupid ...

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#674

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

DaSHacka wrote: post #350
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not sustainable to sell a product that most people only buy because they were trying to buy something else (or because they're forced to for societal reasons). Like a car in the United States, outside of perhaps five metro areas?

What do you suggest people were trying to buy, instead of cars?

In addition to the point made by rjsw in this subthread .... food.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#675

Post by nobodyandproud »

gedy wrote: post #566
immibis wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a problem? We expect universities to have a pro-truth, pro-reality, pro-knowledge bias, which are things the Republican party overtly rejects. We could expect that Republicans might not make it to universities as often, or they might not want to attend, or they might cease being Republicans upon learning facts and logic. None of this would be surprising and none of this would necessarily be a problem by itsel…

> We expect universities to have a pro-truth, pro-reality, pro-knowledge bias And yet they are far from that. Lots of finger-in-ears, "la-la-la-I can't hear you" behaviour from universities in US/west past decade for sure.

Speaking of fingers in ears…

That happens in conservative circles too. But instead of 4 years, Americans like myself are stuck with 40 years of business indoctrination from pro-business and conservative “leadership”.

The same leadership, by the way, that largely insisted on college degrees in the first place.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#676

Post by secabeen »

rayiner wrote: post #658
vasco wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your view the benefits of university are that rich people go there? Did I somehow completely misunderstand?

No, the benefits of university are from smart people who can earn enough during summers to pay reasonable tuition if schools weren't set up as four-year vacations with lavish amenities. When I went to Georgia Tech, in-state tuition was about $2,400 per semester, or about $20,000 over four years (in 2024 dollars). It was a spartan, 1970's experience--like European universities often are today--but it was quite afforda…

And do you know who is responsible for the increase in tuition at Georgia Tech? The legislature and governor of the state of Georgia. State appropriations for higher ed and the tuition rates at Georgia Tech are set exclusively by the state government and its appointees on the Board of Regents for the State University System, not by university administrators in any way.

https://www.usg.edu/regents/

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#677

Post by kgdiem »

snowwrestler wrote: post #663
jswelker wrote: post #102

Higher ed is like employer based health insurance in that they are both weird path dependent historical accidents. People want cheap healthcare, and it got shoehorned into an odd employer fringe benefit system that really is not at all related healthcare in any intrinsic way. People want job training, and it got shoehorned into extra departments at liberal arts universities intended as aristocrat finishing schools. J…

People don’t want “cheap healthcare,” people want to be healthy. And people don’t want “job training,” people want to be educated and have a fulfilling life. Of course college looks too expensive if it is just “job training.” But that is not what college is. College proved its immense value first , and then because of its obvious value, employers started looking for it. But you’ve let the cart get in front of the hor…

I agree with you in spirit but most people in the US look at college like job training. It’s literally advertised as job training on TV, buses and billboards. Teachers, parents, and media have long been seen as “the way” to get a job.

One of the most disappointing things about college was how little people cared about the liberal arts aspect, where humanities courses were an annoying box to tick.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#678

Post by [deleted] »

apparent wrote: post #341
menaerus wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who can afford themselves going to private schools have a reason why they prefer spending 100ks vs less. Prestige schools gets you a prestige job so "It is almost unimaginable that attending a private college could have a positive expected value at that cost" isn't necessarily true.

The thing is, prestige and cost do not go hand in hand. The most expensive schools are not the most prestigious. I think Vanderbilt was the first school to hit the ignominious milestone of $100,000/yr, and they're not Ivy League, Ivy+, or perhaps even Ivy++ (if such a classification existed).

[deleted]

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#679

Post by joshtbradley »

snowwrestler wrote: post #663
jswelker wrote: post #102

Higher ed is like employer based health insurance in that they are both weird path dependent historical accidents. People want cheap healthcare, and it got shoehorned into an odd employer fringe benefit system that really is not at all related healthcare in any intrinsic way. People want job training, and it got shoehorned into extra departments at liberal arts universities intended as aristocrat finishing schools. J…

People don’t want “cheap healthcare,” people want to be healthy. And people don’t want “job training,” people want to be educated and have a fulfilling life. Of course college looks too expensive if it is just “job training.” But that is not what college is. College proved its immense value first , and then because of its obvious value, employers started looking for it. But you’ve let the cart get in front of the hor…

The problem is there isn’t an alternative for people who want one. I’m self educated and self employed, and yet I’m forced to pay for healthcare I don’t need, and compete against those with the pedigree of an Ivy League.

My issue is these things boil down to class. There should be a legitimate, high quality alternative for those who can’t afford it.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#680

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

venturecruelty wrote: post #114
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can provide the piece of paper at a fraction of the cost This isn’t socially useful.

And what we're doing now is? Telling 17-year-olds to take on six figures of debt and then replacing them with ChatGPT while making it impossible to discharge their debt?

The people who can be replaced by ChatGPT are the ones who treated their time in college as "just getting a piece of paper". They paid handsomely for a chance at drinking from the fountain of knowledge and instead did a rinse and spit.
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