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Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

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Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#671
post #437

The important parts: > Alsup ruled that Anthropic's use of copyrighted books to train its AI models was "exceedingly transformative" and qualified as fair use > "All Anthropic did was replace the print copies it had purchased for its central library with more convenient space-saving and searchable digital copies for its central library — without adding new copies, creating new works, or redistributing existing copies…

Im not sure how I feel about what anthropic did on merit as a matter of scale, but from a legalistic standpoint how is it different from using the book to train the meat model in my head? I could even learn bits by heart and quote them in context.

Not sure about the law, but if you memorize and quote bits of a book and fail to attribute them, you could be accused of plagiarism. If for example you were a journalist or researcher, this could have professional consequences. Anthropic is building tools to do the same at immense scale with no concept of what plagiarism or attribution even is, let alone any method to track sourcing--and they're still willing to sell these tools. So even if your meat model and the trained model do something similar, you have a notably different understanding of what you're doing. Responsibility might ultimately fall to the end user, but it seems like something is getting laundered here.

Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

copyright is not the same as piracy

Can you explain why? What makes them categorically different or at the very least why is "piracy" quantitatively worse than 'just' copyright violation?

The simplest way to put I can think of is a silly set of two hypotheticals.

Imagine mer-people or aliens existed and started armed raiding marine shipping. That would be would be a hostile act of war. Declaring war on the mer-people would be a shame but justifiable in self-defense.

Imagine instead they were decrypting communications and using it to decipher and view our content. The other would basically be acceptable as part of a first contact protocol and exploration as it involves trying to figure out the basics of communication protocols of an 'alien' species. Declaring war on them in response would be a vastly disproportionate act of aggression for violating laws that they had no way of knowing they were subject to and literally could not possibly know.

Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#673

Same did Meta and probably other big companies. People who praise AGI are very short sighted. It will ruin the world with our current morals and ethics. It's like a nuclear weapon in the hands of barbarians (shit, we have that too, actually).

The main problem I have with that argument is when have we ever been "ready" for any technology ahead of times? Its impact is always unknown not only on society but in the technology itself. What sort of 'preparatory' work can a society do to satisfy this? If we were to apply such 'precautionary' logic to automobiles it would at very best be starting out with a large public works project to create separated grades for all vehicles, before building a single vehicle (where they have no idea how tight the constraints will truly be, thinking they will go only as fast as a horse at a gallop). It is far more likely to wind up a silly waste of time or pretext for Luddism to try to delay the inevitable. Like it or not, being capable of doing something is the only true deciding standard of being ready for something.

Not to mention the whole notion of being able to judge others as 'not ready for it' is an insult to the very notion of individual self-determination. Imagine for instance if the western world in the past had took after Starfleet in the worst of ways and banned supplying medical aid to sub-Saharan Africa as they judged their society as not ready for it. They would rightfully be called callous, arrogant racist imperialists for thinking it is their right to impose suffering upon others and deny others opportunities and self-determination because of their own parochial judgement and thinking they knew better! Putting oneself in the position to be able to judge for the world is an act of hubris far greater than that they project upon the attempted inventors of AGI.

Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#674

If AI companies are allowed to use pirated material to create their products, does it mean that everyone can use pirated software to create products? Where is the line? Also please don't use word "learning", use "creating software using copyrighted materials". Also let's think together how can we prevent AI companies from using our work using technical measures if the law doesn't work?

When I was young and poor I learned on pirated software. Do I owe Adobe, Microsoft and others a percentage of my today income?

Ask them?

Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe because they don't want to reward Google for continuously running Youtube into the ground while still being worse than the free alternatives. Not to mention that they already watering down permium with premium lite, I give it two tears before you need to get premium+ to not see ads.

Then don't use the service? Use one of the 'better' free alternatives. Let's see how long they remain free once (if) they actually see a meaningful amount of traffic. Complaining about advertising while using a service for which you pay nothing is immature and unreasonable. I hate advertising and have done everything I can to remove it from my life. That means paying for services that I enjoy using. I would rather pr…

>Then don't use the service? Use one of the 'better' free alternatives

you can use alternatives but those do not have the actual content that is the reason anybody watches youtube (its in the name).

im also talking about free alternatives to premium being better for example offline videos still having DRM unlike every free yt downloader ever. the only way they have made premium better is by actively making the experience worse for everybody else is by pay walling the old default bitrate.

>Let's see how long they remain free once (if) they actually see a meaningful amount of traffic

there continues effort towards making the platform worse with every decision does not have anything to do with funding

https://www.thetoptens.com/youtube/youtube-features-were-rem...

Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet it’s pretty easy to reproduce enough of Harry Potter from these models that any judge would see it as not fair use - you’d just have to prompt it in the right way. I’d bet a large sum that when this eventually shakes through the Supreme Court, it won’t be deemed fair use entirely, for the better of the world.

If I use my Microsoft Word processor in the right way I can reproduce it too.

The law is good at dismissing bad faith arguments like this, they are conceptually very far apart.

Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#677
post #603
post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see where you are coming from: "My 8-yo son can also build websites". Writing books is a profession. Some people write full-time and make a living from it, through book sales, speaking gigs, teaching, or other related work. Maybe ask Tim O’Reilly what he thinks about this so-called fantasy. Like I said, Anthropic needs to stop stealing books or face the consequences.

No you don't see where I am coming from. And my father was a university professor. I am certainly not opposed to authors being fairly remunerated for their work, that's why I brought up that example. My point is, the controversy is not an AI corporation vs 10^5 ordinary teachers. It's a battle of two corporations, or business models, if you will. But regardless of the result, most of the book authors will continue to…

you are correct

Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#678
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At minimum they should have to buy the book they are deriving weights from.

But should the purchase be like a personal license? Or like a commercia license that costs way more? Because for example if you buy a movie on disc, that's a personal license and you can watch it yourself at home. But you can't like play it at a large public venue that sell tickets to watch it. You need a different and more expensive license to make money off the usage of the content in a larger capacity like that.

I think it would have to be commercial since they are making profits from selling inference on the weights that derived from the books.

Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that downloading requires you to copy the data to download it, I'd think it would fall under "adding new copies".

> All Anthropic did was replace the print copies it had purchased ... with more convenient space-saving and searchable digital copies for its central library — without adding new copies..." That suggests otherwise.

They are using legal speak where I'm just talking making copies. The fact that they talk about how making a copy "without adding new copies" only makes sense in this light.

Re: Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge

#680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't be so sure about that statement, no one has ruled on the output of Anthropic's AI yet. If their AI spits out the original copy of the book then it is practically the same as buying a book from them instead of the copyright holder. We've only dealt with the fairly straight-forward legal questions so far. This legal battle is still far from being settled.

It’s very unlikely that Claude will verbatim reproduce an entire book from its training corpus. If that’s the bar, they are pretty safe in my opinion.

https://bsky.app/profile/jtlg.bsky.social/post/3ltn6gtepsc2w
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