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The $25k car is going extinct?

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Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#671

Post by bityard »

NickC25 wrote: post #603
mattmaroon wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it’s well below the minimum sustainable level due to Chinese government subsidies.

And that's a bad thing? A country's government sees an opportunity to invest into a promising new technology that could reap tremendous economic benefits. Such benefits include new jobs, new income, the ability to increase social/political capital worldwide, and help usher in a world that is that much less reliant on oil. That's what countries in the first world are supposed to do .

When we say Chinese government subsides, we are not talking about tax reductions or interest free business loans, we are talking about the Chinese government itself operating the business and selling the products at a steep loss in order to undercut and wipe out incumbent global competition in the world market so that China becomes the primary worldwide supplier of those particular goods.

This has already happened to consumer electronics, power tools, manufacturing equipment, solar panels, and batteries.

The strategy is especially effective on products with a high startup cost in markets that have to deal with high amounts of regulation and labor unions because being government-owned means you get to skip all that. There's no reason to expect that cars won't be next.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#672

Post by csomar »

jjice wrote: post #647
mberning wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are 100% correct. I was a senior in college and my beater died. I went to the Mazda dealer and talked them down to $13k on a brand new Mazda3. My payment was like $280. Now inflation adjusted that is supposedly just shy of $22k. But it’s not the full story. That car was actually very nice for the time and to get an equivalently nice car today it’s not going to be a bare bones Nissan Versa or something like that.

To share an anecdote on the more recent side of the spectrum, I bought a new 2025 Toyota Corolla LE two months ago. It's probably the cheapest vehicle Toyota makes. My cost before tax and title (not sure if that should be included or not) was $23k. It's a pretty great car. Highway averages like 45-50 MPH (25-35 city), it's comfortable, has Car Play, and everything else you'd expect in a car now. I'll say that the two…

I think the problem here is that we are comparing against price inflation (not salary inflation). If every company increased its prices, then that's the inflation. Customers will feel ripped off if their salaries didn't at least match inflation.

In other words, if your salary in 2005 was $50k when Mazda was $13k; then your salary should be $82k for a $22k Mazda3 to be the same price. Currently, a Mazda3 starts at $24k and will probably run at $26-27k: https://www.mazdausa.com/vehicles/mazda3-sedan

> All that to say that I think that inflation adjusted measure can still get you a fine car. As for the argument about income vs inflation in GP, I have no idea.

Kind of. But my understanding is that most salaries haven't caught up to inflation especially in the last few years when the US economy had the worst inflation.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#673

Post by BanterTrouble »

LUmBULtERA wrote: post #650
BanterTrouble wrote: post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything that takes control away from me I am not interested in. I am both legally and financially liable for anything the car does. I am also not trusting my life to some poorly maintained software written by someone in another country.

Being legally and financially liable doesn't bring back the kid you ran over because you couldn't see them with your mirrors or turning your head...

Mandating driving aids (that often don't work properly) won't fix this problem either.

What does increase safety is better driver training. This has be ubiquitously proven BTW.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#674

Post by LUmBULtERA »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #486
dismalaf wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because a big part of owning a vehicle is summer roadtrips, ski vacations, visiting family, moving stuff. An SUV is simply more convenient. I've also found road maintenance is getting worse where I live, it's almost necessary having an SUV or truck just to navigate the suburbs. Also the (semi) compact crossover has kind of killed the compact car. You get more space, better ground clearance, for a decent price.

99% of people with an SUV will never use the "sport utility" aspect of it, and they could do all of the things you listed better with a minivan (Sienna/Odyssey/etc). But the driver would have to sit lower in a minivan. Which is what SUVs are really about, the ego boost one gets from sitting higher up (and the associated feelings with being able to not have to settle for a minivan, and being able to waste a little mon…

I don't follow this logic at all. We have a Model Y SUV. We use the space of its hatchback and frunk frequently, and it's much more efficient to drive than a Sienna or Odyssey. There's no logical reason to conclude a minivan would be better for our purposes.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#675

Post by finolex1 »

ArtemZ wrote: post #207
doppp wrote: post #191

You guys get cars for under six figures? Haha nice, cries in Singapore

But why do you need a car in Singapore? I can't take my kid to school or buy groceries without a car here, it is a basic necessity and I hate it. But you have amazing transit and high density.

Tourists get this impression by staying in the city centre. However, if you live in an outer neighborhood, what would be a 15 min car ride can easily become a 40 minute journey on public transport if you have to walk to the train station, take the train, and perhaps take a bus for the last mile. Now imagine you have a kid in tow or an elderly parent.

Yes, public transit is not a necessity here like in the States, but it's a nice convenience to have, and plenty of people are wealthy enough to pay for it.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#676

Post by throwaway173738 »

BanterTrouble wrote: post #597
bumby wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those “useless” sensors like tire pressure or backup camera are required by law. Even if you get a bare bones hatchback (manual transmission, manual locks, manual windows etc.) they’ll be forced to include those.

The tyre pressure sensor you can make an argument to be required by law as uneven tyre pressures can negatively effect handling. However the backup camera being required by law is absolutely ridiculous. You can just either use the mirrors or turn your head.

The C pillars are too large and the body too high for you to get good sight to anything behind you in a modern vehicle.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#677

Post by idiotsecant »

BanterTrouble wrote: post #597
bumby wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those “useless” sensors like tire pressure or backup camera are required by law. Even if you get a bare bones hatchback (manual transmission, manual locks, manual windows etc.) they’ll be forced to include those.

The tyre pressure sensor you can make an argument to be required by law as uneven tyre pressures can negatively effect handling. However the backup camera being required by law is absolutely ridiculous. You can just either use the mirrors or turn your head.

You must have quite the impressive neck if you can reproduce the same view a backup camera does.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#678

Post by throwaway173738 »

Hamuko wrote: post #498
alerighi wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, if they would make a basic car like in the past I would buy it. Everyone has to sell you too much, I want a simple car, I don't want either the stereo, I will add my own later (I can put it one that is better than the factory one for a cheaper price, but in a modern car replacing the stereo is almost impossible). There are a ton of useless sensors, the sensor that tells you if you have a flat tire (I think I can…

I presume you're gonna buy a Slate truck? https://www.slate.auto/en

Is it available in a hybrid or ICE?

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#679

Post by BanterTrouble »

idiotsecant wrote: post #677
BanterTrouble wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tyre pressure sensor you can make an argument to be required by law as uneven tyre pressures can negatively effect handling. However the backup camera being required by law is absolutely ridiculous. You can just either use the mirrors or turn your head.

You must have quite the impressive neck if you can reproduce the same view a backup camera does.

You can also turn your body a bit as well.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#680

Post by potato3732842 »

__s wrote: post #606
toxik wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are required by law in no small part because car manufacturers want it to be. Compliance is a moat.

Rearview cameras are effective: https://www.iihs.org/research-areas/bibliography/ref/2130 I agree with having simpler SKUs, but rearview camera is not where to start

The problem isn't that they're effective. It's that they're a regulatory solution to the complaints that the same demographics had 20yr ago (it's too easy to back a big fashionable in the 00s SUV over a kid) and as a result of it now all cars have crap rear visibility because there's no reason to be good when you have the camera.
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