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FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

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Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#671

Post by ajross »

Gabriel54 wrote: post #617
Animats wrote: post #602

A key point here, which the judge brought up with the ICE agents, is that they only had an "administrative warrant".[1] An “ICE warrant” is not a real warrant. It is not reviewed by a judge or any neutral party to determine if it is based on probable cause. "An immigration officer from ICE or CBP may not enter any nonpublic areas—or areas that are not freely accessible to the public and hence carry a higher expectati…

There is no suggestion that the agents conducted a search or entered a non-public area. And this has nothing to do with the claim that the judge actively obstructed their efforts.

It can't very well be "obstruction" if they aren't empowered to do the search in the first place, can it?

No, this is a disaster. Hyperbole aside, this is indeed how democracy dies. Eventually this escalates to arresting more senior political enemies. And eventually the arbiter of whoever has the power to make and enforce those arrests ends up resting not with the elected government but in the law enforcement and military apparatus with the physical power to do so.

Once your regime is based on the use of force, you end up beholden to the users of force. Every time. We used to be special. We aren't now.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#672

Post by nostrademons »

whats_a_quasar wrote: post #237
pjc50 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> incredibly doubtful that they could be successfully prosecuted for this. But they can be successfully arrested. You can beat the rap but not the ride, etc. The US is not yet at the level of dysfunction where jurisdiction is settled with gunfire, but ICE seem to be determined to move that closer.

"You can beat the rap but not the ride" is phrased like the judge actually did anything wrong. That seems very doubtful. This administration has shown they are not entitled to the presumption that they are acting in good faith.

Looking at the rest of the GP's comment:

> The US is not yet at the level of dysfunction where jurisdiction is settled with gunfire, but ICE seem to be determined to move that closer.

I don't think they intended to imply that the judge did anything wrong. Rather, they're saying that if you live in a world where the FBI or ICE or other official agencies can rough you up regardless of whether you're guilty or innocent in the eyes of the law, disputes are going to get settled with violence. After all, if the police are just going to make life difficult for you when you're arrested (the "ride") regardless of whether you're guilty in the eyes of the law (the "rap"), what's the logical response when you see a policeman coming to you? You shoot them. Don't let them arrest you because you're gonna have a bad time anyway.

Various marginalized communities (in both other countries and parts of the U.S.) already function that way - violence is an endemic part of how problems are solved. And going back to the threadstarter, that's why police departments have instituted sanctuary city policies. They don't want to get shot, and so they try to create an incentive structure where generally law-abiding (except for their immigration status) residents are unafraid to go to the police and help them catch actual criminals, rather than treating all police as the enemy.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#673

Post by spacemadness »

Hojojo wrote: post #658
cactacea wrote: post #454

ICE has absolutely no business in state courthouses. The federal interest in enforcing immigration law should not be placed above the state's interest in enforcing equal protection under the law. Consider the case of a undocumented rape victim. Do they not deserve justice? Are we better off letting a rapist go free when their victim cannot testify against them because they were deported? I think not and I do not want…

[flagged]

People are quibbling without understanding what kind of warrant it was even. They just read “warrant” or are using it in bad faith. We have a lot of bad faith arguers on HN due to it being a public forum. If you check their post history it’s very apparent.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#674

Post by tmiku »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #628
cactacea wrote: post #454

ICE has absolutely no business in state courthouses. The federal interest in enforcing immigration law should not be placed above the state's interest in enforcing equal protection under the law. Consider the case of a undocumented rape victim. Do they not deserve justice? Are we better off letting a rapist go free when their victim cannot testify against them because they were deported? I think not and I do not want…

Consider the case of an arrest warrant for a rapist . Can it not be served at a courthouse? What if a judge smuggled them out a private door after being informed of the arrest warrant. Edit: the charge isn't for refusing to enforce. It's for smuggling someone out in attempt to actively impede their arrest.

You're missing the point - a rapist would have a criminal arrest warrant, which would absolutely be the courthouse's responsibility to enforce. The ICE agents attempted to disrupt a criminal proceeding to enforce a civil immigration warrant not signed by a judge. More on that distinction here: https://www.fletc.gov/ice-administrative-removal-warrants-mp...

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#675

Post by linksnapzz »

ajross wrote: post #671
Gabriel54 wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no suggestion that the agents conducted a search or entered a non-public area. And this has nothing to do with the claim that the judge actively obstructed their efforts.

It can't very well be "obstruction" if they aren't empowered to do the search in the first place, can it? No, this is a disaster. Hyperbole aside, this is indeed how democracy dies. Eventually this escalates to arresting more senior political enemies. And eventually the arbiter of whoever has the power to make and enforce those arrests ends up resting not with the elected government but in the law enforcement and mil…

As it turns out, hyperbole is not aside.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#676

Post by ajross »

kemayo wrote: post #16

> He accused Dugan of “intentionally misdirecting” federal agents who arrived at the courthouse to detain an immigrant who was set to appear before her in an unrelated proceeding. It sounds like the arrest isn't because of any official act of the judge, but rather over them either not telling the ICE agents where the person was or giving them the wrong information about their location. There are some pretty broad law…

> It sounds like the arrest isn't because of any official act of the judge, but rather over them either not telling the ICE agents where the person was or giving them the wrong information about their location.

No, that is the excuse. They found a technicality on which they could arrest her, so they arrested her because they wanted to arrest her. Needless to say people don't get tried on this kind of "look the other way" "obstruction" as a general rule. This case is extremely special.

It is abundantly clear that this arrest was made for political reasons, as part of a big and very obvious public policy push.

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#677

Post by lliamander »

fzeroracer wrote: post #664
lliamander wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard that accusation so frequently from people who have zero concern about the constitution, let alone even know what it says, that I honestly struggle not to laugh. I quite obviously reject your framing, and believe that there is a real discussion about how to properly adhere to the constitution in the face of conflicting considerations. But you do you.

There is no discussion to be had when the Trump admin is directly violating people's constitutional rights. If you reject my framing then it's obvious where you fall, you're just not willing to say it loudly yet.

> There is no discussion to be had when the Trump admin is directly violating people's constitutional rights.

And yet here you are, still talking. So long as we are continuing this conversation, do you have any thoughts on how the executive branch should effectively enforce immigration law, which it has an obligation to do, according to the constitution?

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#678

Post by dmoy »

dragonwriter wrote: post #561
dmoy wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is illegal in all 50 states to organize a militia.

It is legal in all 50 states to organize a militia, it is illegal in all 50 states to do certain things as a militia including (the exact rules vary by state) things like participating in civil disorder, planning to participate in civil disorder, training for sabotage or guerilla warfare, etc. Of course, since the purpose being suggested here is literally the purported urgent need to engage in armed rebellion against…

Fair, I should have explicitly stated "it's illegal in all 50 states to organize a militia for this purpose"

(Edit: also if we're being pedantic about it, >25 states have laws against forming private militias at all)

Re: FBI arrests judge accused of helping man evade immigration authorities

#680

Post by s1artibartfast »

Animats wrote: post #602

A key point here, which the judge brought up with the ICE agents, is that they only had an "administrative warrant".[1] An “ICE warrant” is not a real warrant. It is not reviewed by a judge or any neutral party to determine if it is based on probable cause. "An immigration officer from ICE or CBP may not enter any nonpublic areas—or areas that are not freely accessible to the public and hence carry a higher expectati…

How is that a key point? The agents were asked to wait in a public area, the hall outside the courtroom. There was a call with the chief judge who confirmed this is a public area.

The allegations revolve around judge Dugan's actions. They allegedly cancelled the targets hearing and [directed] the them through a private back door to avoid arrest.

Edit: directed, not escorted.

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