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Interviewing a software engineer who prepared with AI

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Re: Interviewing a software engineer who prepared with AI

#671

Post by re-thc »

motorest wrote: post #659
re-thc wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is closer to traditional craftsmanship and the progression of apprentice-journeyman-master than the “every hacker for themselves”. Let's fix the real problem then? Why can't tech be like this?

> Let's fix the real problem then? Why can't tech be like this? Why should it? What problems would they solve? Are you so afraid of competing with those who might not get a certiciation?

> Why should it? What problems would they solve?

We clearly do have a problem. No 1 learns from past mistakes. We keep reinventing the wheel e.g. the land of NodeJs, Javascript, etc. Even within companies there's no learnings passed down. Each new hire thinks they're the best and tries to redo it all.

> Are you so afraid of competing with those who might not get a certiciation?

I rather compete on certification than compete on leet code. Do you miss the point that the whole leet code system has nothing to do with any job? At least certification might be slightly be relevant.

Re: Interviewing a software engineer who prepared with AI

#672

Post by re-thc »

fzeroracer wrote: post #463
motorest wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sitting in a conference room under pressure after potentially flying out possibly hundreds of miles doesn't test your soft skills in actual day to day work. I've known many excellent engineers that buckle under that conditional. You're complaining about the hypothetical effectiveness of concrete hiring practices. You are not rejecting the value and importance of soft skills. Also, the ability to work under pressure…

> Also, the ability to work under pressure is valuable skill. If you have a candidate that fails to perform when being in a room with someone else, I doubt you can argue that that's your hiring decision when other candidates are able to perform in similar circumstances. I'm curious, as a software engineer when was the last time you've seriously worked under pressure? Like, 'do this thing now or you're fired/the compa…

> I'm curious, as a software engineer when was the last time you've seriously worked under pressure? Like, 'do this thing now or you're fired/the company goes under' and so forth?

All the time. Depends on where you work. It happens in startups, small companies and many others. Even in large organizations with stack ranking for example.

> The kind of snap pressure that interviews can push on you.

Not even close to the same. How do you equate pressure? Someone can fear spiders more than jumping off a cliff. Crunch time for them can be less than interviews. Point being?

Re: Interviewing a software engineer who prepared with AI

#673

Post by maxnevermind »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #283
throwaway2037 wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most highly developed countries, there is a probation period for 90+ days for new hires. During this period, you can be fired for any reason. It is not an expensive as people think to fire someone who deceived your hiring process. However, institution inertia is real. That said, I very much agree with your last paragraph. In the late 1990s and early 2000s, a lot of hiring was done this way in the US.

> In most highly developed countries, there is a probation period for 90+ days for new hires. During this period, you can be fired for any reason. In an American context, this is generally true in 49 out of 50 states, except that the probation period covers the entire duration of your employment. The people who say firing is expensive are thinking about something else.

Every big tech company in the US has their version of PIP, to protect them from potential law suits as I understand, that lead to a situation that low performers might occupy their positions for months and years.

Re: Interviewing a software engineer who prepared with AI

#674

Post by thaumasiotes »

maxnevermind wrote: post #673
thaumasiotes wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In most highly developed countries, there is a probation period for 90+ days for new hires. During this period, you can be fired for any reason. In an American context, this is generally true in 49 out of 50 states, except that the probation period covers the entire duration of your employment. The people who say firing is expensive are thinking about something else.

Every big tech company in the US has their version of PIP, to protect them from potential law suits as I understand, that lead to a situation that low performers might occupy their positions for months and years.

NCC Group fired me with no notice, no severance, and no stated cause. PIPs exist; that doesn't mean you have to use them.

Re: Interviewing a software engineer who prepared with AI

#675

Post by alkonaut »

wijwp wrote: post #514
iamleppert wrote: post #476

It's really easy to catch these scammers. Ask for a non-trivial code or work sample, something they have written. Actually take the time to read through the code and understand at least a part of it. In an interview, ask them some questions about it. People who actually wrote the code or did the thing can talk at length about about what they did, the history behind it, trade offs, have colorful stories about it, etc.…

"Ask for a non-trivial code or work sample, something they have written." I haven't written non-proprietary code in a decade.

Everyone can produce _something_ they have written. Yes there are people who literally clock in at work and code 8-5 for 10 years and never touched a hobby project or contributed to an OSS project. And you might not want to filter that group out completely. But if I was in that group and I was considering switching jobs, I'd definitely make sure I had some of that proprietary code stashed away so I could show a potential future employer. Yes you won't be allowed to do that. And it would be understandable if in some cases (like you work as a defense contractor) it's completely impossible. But for most people it should be possible to show something.

Re: Interviewing a software engineer who prepared with AI

#676

Post by jajko »

wqaatwt wrote: post #620
jajko wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, that's just rather bland justification of cheating. Not sure how US corporations work, but in Europe any big company would flag you internally so you won't be able to work there for a decade, and the mark still remains in their hiring system afterwards. Just a stupid thing to do, as lying always is. This are not school exams, company wants to hire the best candidate. If all fail then best failing is still the b…

> would flag you internally And how would they figure that out if you lie by exaggerating your experience and skills and not outright making up entirely false stuff?

Its up to interviewers but discussed matters can be checked quickly (ah you claim 10 years java backend integration experience? Ok lets dig deep. If reality is (almost) 0 thats lying in plain view).

Also not sure you understand english language, greatly exaggerating or making up stuff is still same lying, details are irrelevant.

Re: Interviewing a software engineer who prepared with AI

#677

Post by flaburgan »

WalterBright wrote: post #585
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They say they "use AI to match the keywords in job description". If recruiters only pick up your resumes based on keyword matching themselves, what is one to do, if not adapt their resumes to said keywords so they can at least try to get to a human interview? Not talking about India specifically, but in general. Hiring is broken, so everyone tries to fix it in their own ways to maximize their chances.

Recruiters have gone beyond keyword matching, they're now using AI to judge the resume. > Hiring is broken How would you, as an employer, filter out the frauds?

Personally, I think free software are really important, and I love the developers that I am hiring to be in this mindset as well. So the first think I am doing is to check their gitlab / github profiles. If they love to write code and to share it, there obviously will be code there to check. Of course this code could be written with help of an AI but, nothing is preventing the developer to use it while working as well. As long as the result if good, everything is fine.

Re: Interviewing a software engineer who prepared with AI

#678

Post by ralferoo »

miki123211 wrote: post #596
gspencley wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Side note, as far as a job requirements goes the bigger issue is asking for impossibly diverse experience and asking for things that can be easily learnt. Really? That's the bigger issue? Company wants to pay money to someone in exchange for services. They have unreasonable expectations. So that makes it OK for people to deceive them in order to have them believe that their unreasonable expectations have been met?…

The problem is that if everybody lies and you're the one not lying, you're worse off. In that scenario, the choice is between lying and being on even footing with everybody else, versus staying honest and getting an unfair disadvantage for it. If enough participants lie, some of the honest participants get pushed out of the system, which makes lying more socially acceptable, which causes even more participants to lie…

Not everyone lies. To say everyone does is just lying to yourself in an attempt at rationalisation.

Tell the truth. If you perform poorly in an interview, you now know where your weaknesses are. Work on them. Do a hobby project that lets you gain experience in that area. Use that as an example in your interview. Not only can you be truthful, you'll be more confident as you'll actually understand what you're talking about and can turn it into a positive - "I was weak in this area, so I went off an studied it myself" reveals more about your character than just the specific thing you learned.

Re: Interviewing a software engineer who prepared with AI

#679

Post by mock-possum »

no-dr-onboard wrote: post #45

I keep coming back to this phrase used in this post: "it was scary". Yeah, hiring is scary. Hiring is insanely expensive on all fronts. Firing people is difficult, it's expensive and legally exposing. Hiring the wrong person, allowing them access your systems and potentially exfiltrate your IP to them is a hazardous but necessary venture. The thing is, none of these things really changed with AI. People have been lyi…

I’ve literally never, in almost 20 years in the industry, been asked to or expected to wear a suit. I’ve never ever had anyone say anything to me about my clothes period. It’s simply not a consideration in my experience. In fact the one time I worked for a place that had a dress code, it specifically exempted my department (software engineering) from the policy - and if that hadn’t been the case I wouldn’t have taken that job.

The real answer here is: know the dress expectations of the place you’re applying to, and consider whether you feel comfortable working for a place that won’t pay you the courtesy of letting you dress yourself.

Re: Interviewing a software engineer who prepared with AI

#680

Post by re-thc »

sarchertech wrote: post #642
motorest wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Literally no other industry except for the performing arts interviews like this. No, not really. Take for example FANGs. Their hiring process is notorious for culminating with an on-site interview, where 4 or more interviewers grill you on all topics they find relevant. Some FANGs are also very clear that their hiring process focuses particularly on soft-skills. Where in the world do hope to find an engineering job…

You’re comment was talking about performing under pressure and failing to perform with people watching them. In this context when you say perform I assumed (as would most people) that you’re talking about technical/work sample interviews not culture fit tell me about a time you did x interviews. If you’re talking about those, then yes every job in every industry does that. If you’re talking about stand at this white…

> If you’re talking about those, then yes every job in every industry does that.

EVERY job in EVERY industry???

Well apparently the penguins have to pay tariffs. Do you know what industry they are in and how they do interviews?

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