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How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

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Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#671

Post by oblio »

zmgsabst wrote: post #363
mmooss wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it starts with undermining the values: Note the disparagement of freedom, of knowledge, science, and education as ways humans can make their world better - even the idea of making the world better and of truth itself; of the rule of law rather than the rule of power, and the embrace of violence, athletics, etc. Notice the contempt for the enlightenment and embrace of ancient Rome and other sub-democratic or d…

It wasn’t the MAGA movement that started dismantling Western culture in the US. That’s been happening from Leftist criticism for generations.

Do you mean academic Marxists or something?

Their impact outside of minor student circles has been 0. And for sure none of those are MAGA or Le Pen or AfD voters...

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#672

Post by oblio »

OccamsMirror wrote: post #467
luhsprwhk wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say war became hot again way back when with Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Korea. Proxy wars but wars nonetheless. A major war? Perhaps 2022 was the start of it like you said, that tracks. Hopefully not though.

I guess it depends how Europe responds to Greenland being invaded.

Europe will respond in 2 ways:

1. Short term: nothing major because it can't at the moment.

2. Long term: build up a military that is a credible military deterrent to the US, probably abandon NATO if the US doesn't, and form alliances with Canada and the UK.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#673

Post by PartiallyTyped »

zmgsabst wrote: post #348
tdb7893 wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a mistake to think people are just oblivious. It's not a majority but there are actually a lot of people aware of these things and celebrating them. One thing I don't see mentioned a lot but Trump has made being a victim a fairly central part of his politics (him thinking all elections are rigged against him is a simple example of this) so this all makes sense as a sort of retribution. You can see the re…

Trump isn’t the source of that, but a manifestation of it. People are tired of, eg, systemic discrimination being forced on them by elites (euphemized “DIE”) or courts which have outspoken activists refusing to enforce the law against career criminals. They want it to stop — and since elites refused to onboard that correction, they rallied behind a strongman to punish them.

Trump and his ilk are literally “elites”, richest cabinet in history and that’s excluding the unelected SS cutter that meddles into everything.

DEI, just so you know, also covers programmes that help poor communities by providing funding for education.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#674

Post by PieTime »

RachelF wrote: post #215
twright wrote: post #122

This is a really good compilation that should make any "free-speech absolutist" reconsider their support for the current administration. In my understanding, the commonplace interpretation of the first amendment is largely due to a series of landmark cases through the early to mid-20th century. A lot of expansions were provided to the amendment that have been taken for granted since then and we are now going to see c…

One thing not on the list (yet) is the freezing of protesters' bank accounts that happened in Canada. Or the de-banking that happens to politicians in the UK. Or the jailing of whistleblower lawyers that happens in Australia.

I agree, but I think these countries don’t actually have free speech. I don’t care if I disagree with these positions. I will protest to defend their right to say it, otherwise I will lose mine as well.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#675

Post by DangitBobby »

kleton wrote: post #640
DangitBobby wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think trying to mislead people with fake signs and numbers so their vote doesn't get counted is a thing people should be allowed to do by law? What about fraud?

As a juror, I would expect such a trial to at least be able to produce a single victim that could testify on the stand that they got deceived before I would vote guilty.

I'm not following your reasoning. No one falling for it means they didn't commit a crime, or it's evidence they weren't really trying to deceive anyone? I don't think federal crimes have to have a single "victim" for it to be a crime, though obviously I'm not lawyer.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#676

Post by PieTime »

remarkEon wrote: post #643
ooterness wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents have been detaining and trying to deport pro-Palestinian students who are legally in the United States. The administration is targeting students and academics who spoke out against Israel’s attacks on Gaza, or who were active in campus protests against U.S. support for the attacks. Secretary of State Marco Rubio told reporters Thursday that at least 3…

What's the problem here, exactly? Visas are granted as an extension of this country's good will, and if you violate that good will the visa is revoked. Is your issue that you don't believe the conduct to be worthy of revoking the visa? Honestly, it's a little irritating that people think it's normal for these visas to be so liberally granted in the first place. That's probably why we're in this situation at all.

The Visa isn’t being denied for a crime. It’s targeting specific speech of protestors and that should be unconstitutional. Anti-BDS laws fall in the same category and those impact US citizens. You can refuse to hire based on beliefs but the government has no right to tell you what to say. If you commit a crime or materially support terrorism you have a day in court.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#677

Post by comrade1234 »

whatever1 wrote: post #268

As a European for decades in the US, it is the first time in my life that I feel fear for expressing my opinions. Ps does HN offer the capability of completely deleting the account and all of the comments ?

I mule my account every few years. Just post something super-offensive to get banned and then create a new account.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#678

Post by anal_reactor »

Conscat wrote: post #337
ta8645 wrote: post #275

It's been under attack a lot longer than the current administration. "free-speech does not mean freedom from consequences", "free speech does not apply to hate-speech", "we must suppress and limit the spread of misinformation", It really seems that people do not believe in free speech anymore, and only appeal to it as a principle to defend themselves, never to defend those they disagree with.

> "free-speech does not mean freedom from consequences" This is a actually a slogan in support of free speech. Of course people are allowed to say transphobic things online or downtown, but that would surely make some of their coworkers uncomfortable and that's pretty disqualifying from most employment. You're allowed to say things, but colleagues are allowed to respond in kind within the law.

Of course people are allowed to say MAGA-phobic things online or downtown, but that would surely make some of their coworkers uncomfortable and that's pretty disqualifying from most employment. You're allowed to say things, but colleagues are allowed to respond in kind within the law.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#679

Post by remarkEon »

PieTime wrote: post #676
remarkEon wrote: post #643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the problem here, exactly? Visas are granted as an extension of this country's good will, and if you violate that good will the visa is revoked. Is your issue that you don't believe the conduct to be worthy of revoking the visa? Honestly, it's a little irritating that people think it's normal for these visas to be so liberally granted in the first place. That's probably why we're in this situation at all.

The Visa isn’t being denied for a crime. It’s targeting specific speech of protestors and that should be unconstitutional. Anti-BDS laws fall in the same category and those impact US citizens. You can refuse to hire based on beliefs but the government has no right to tell you what to say. If you commit a crime or materially support terrorism you have a day in court.

Not following. These visas are at the pleasure of the government. The argument you're making is that once these visas are granted we are conferring the same rights as those of citizens, which is not true. If someone gets a student visa and comes here, to go to Columbia or NYU or Stanford or wherever, and all they do is agitate protests and cause trouble it seems reasonable that this visa should be revoked, yes? They are not studying, they are doing foreign activism. That's all well and good, but student visas are supposed to be for people who want to be ... students.

Re: How each pillar of the First Amendment is under attack

#680

Post by kleton »

DangitBobby wrote: post #675
kleton wrote: post #640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a juror, I would expect such a trial to at least be able to produce a single victim that could testify on the stand that they got deceived before I would vote guilty.

I'm not following your reasoning. No one falling for it means they didn't commit a crime, or it's evidence they weren't really trying to deceive anyone? I don't think federal crimes have to have a single "victim" for it to be a crime, though obviously I'm not lawyer.

A victimless crime?
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