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Why Canada Should Join the EU

economist.com

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Re: Why Canada Should Join the EU

#671

Post by lotsofpulp »

wvenable wrote: post #612
lotsofpulp wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>First of all, the aging population is the one with all the wealth. The working age population is the wealth. For example, you can have a country with 90 retired people and 10 working people. The 90 retired people can have $1M or $1B or $1T in their accounts, but it isn't going to matter if they have insufficient products/services to buy. The money just provides a relative ranking of what proportion of product/servic…

This is a fantasy. Those 90 returned people can spend their money anywhere in the world and do. Their relative ranking is multiple larger homes and those 10 working people paying them rent. Land value is not a product of labour -- in Canada it's an investment and a way to move/launder money from other countries. Many many properties being build that are not designed to be realistically lived in.

At a 90 working, 10 non working people ratio, there isn’t going to be much to export, and hence the local currency isn’t going to buy much elsewhere in the world.

Also, at 90/10, the working people will surely start to wonder why they are paying rent (or tax) and who is going to stop them if they don’t. Same for invaders looking at obtaining the natural resources in Canada.

I picked an extreme ratio to illustrate the why, but in reality, it’s a far more gradual process, where ideally there is no violence, just various renegotiations of expectations.

> Land value is not a product of labour -- in Canada it's an investment and a way to move/launder money from other countries. Many many properties being build that are not designed to be realistically lived in.

It is sort of “land value is a product of labor from decades prior that has accumulated to the orderly, productive society today”. But that can gradually change.

Re: Why Canada Should Join the EU

#672

Post by throawayonthe »

tsimionescu wrote: post #6

> Canada’s inclusive treatment of its indigenous peoples, at least in recent decades, could be emulated by Europeans (though First Nations Canadians might fairly object to closer ties with ex-colonists) I really wonder what the author meant with this line. There's very few populations in Europe that bear any similarity whatsoever with the relationship between First Nations people and most Canadians, since most popula…

"inclusive treatment" is also an insane label to apply to Canada-First Nations relations

Re: Why Canada Should Join the EU

#673

Post by wqaatwt »

sandworm101 wrote: post #580
tsimionescu wrote: post #6

> Canada’s inclusive treatment of its indigenous peoples, at least in recent decades, could be emulated by Europeans (though First Nations Canadians might fairly object to closer ties with ex-colonists) I really wonder what the author meant with this line. There's very few populations in Europe that bear any similarity whatsoever with the relationship between First Nations people and most Canadians, since most popula…

The irish. The scots. Basically everyone who wasnt related to the vikings after 1066. The welsh trying to protect thier language are basically quebec. The scots talking about leaving, but never actually doing it, are basically alberta. And thats just similarities in the british isles. Then there are all the little counties bordering giant countries (finland) that see parallels to the canada-us relationship.

Were the Scots (i.e. lowland ones) really ever treated that bad?

If anything they had a much bigger part oppressing the highlanders than the English.

Re: Why Canada Should Join the EU

#674

Post by Amezarak »

mainframed wrote: post #462
Amezarak wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of these discussions get held up on what "racist" means to them. I don't think the native people of Hawai'i or the Maori in New Zealand wanting Americans (for the former) and Anglos (for the latter) to leave is "racist." Similarly, I don't see how Germans wanting non-Germans to leave is racist. To me, "racist" would imply the belief one is superior to the other, and that's clearly orthogonal to the remi…

Wow. Comparing colonization with 20/21st century labor migration is peak far right playing victims. I guess the people of Hawai'i and the Maori were also asked and decided in a democratic process if they want their colonizers to come in and help rebuild their economy and do the jobs no one else wants to do. > Similarly, I don't see how Germans wanting non-Germans to leave is racist. Wanting non-Germans to leave when…

I don’t know any modern country where people got to vote on immigration. It seems like even if you vote for the anti immigration parties you get just as much immigration.

At least in America, “less immigration” won out over “more immigration” by clear polling margins every year since 1965, except for a few years in the 2010s. Democratic processes gave them more.

I’ve seen similar results in the UK. Parties mentioning immigration restriction consistently do well and then end up doing nothing or increasing it.

Obviously colonization is only one kind of mass human migration and there are important differences between it and the migration now ongoing, but I don't think "the choice of the people already there" is really a factor in either. One could also argue that in most cases, a determined effort to repel colonizers would have prevented colonization. There was no such societal consensus, so it happened.

> Also, it would not work. Germany still attracts foreign workers in some fields (e.g. nurses). If you tell them, they get to work for 15 years and then have to return, no one would come. If the indigenous people of Germania advocating for no labor migration are ok with dying in their own excrement, because there are no nurses, I guess that would be one way to solve the problem.

Why wouldn't more young Germans just go into nursing? This seems like a rather exaggerated doomsday scenario. There would be shortages, wages would have to rise, and more Gerrmans would choose nursing over what they choose now.

Further, since birth rates are dropping everywhere, aren't you just buying yourself a few years? Eventually everywhere the immigrants are coming from will have the same problem you describe - and their home countries will be in horrific shape because you've sucked away all their talent. What happens then? This is a shortsighted policy no matter how you look at it.

Re: Why Canada Should Join the EU

#675

Post by dismalaf »

rayiner wrote: post #385

Does the economist know what time it is? Nationalism is resurgent: nationalist parties now control the U.S. and Italy. Canada seems poised to Poilievre, who has made impassioned appeals to Canadian nationalism. And in Germany, France, and the U.K., nationalist parties have effectively rendered the governing coalitions impotent, even if they cannot yet command a majority. What a time to suggest that Canadians cede the…

Poilievre is barely nationalist; he believes Canada is a nation and shouldn't be embarrassed of that fact I guess... Versus Trudeau who has said Canada is a post-nationalist state with no identity, that immigrants are more Canadian than Canadians born in Canada and proceeded to fuck up the economy more than anyone in living memory. That's on top of more scandals than any politician in any other western country could possibly survive...

And this whole article is nonsense because literally no politician anywhere, in Canada or the EU, has suggested this union...

Re: Why Canada Should Join the EU

#676

Post by jokethrowaway »

adriand wrote: post #416
BJones12 wrote: post #8

> Europeans could learn from Canada how to allow immigration in a fashion that the population embraces rather than tolerates Clearly the author is ignorant. Canadians are sick of immigration. Young Canadians doubly so. Racism is becoming more acceptable by the day.

That’s not the full context of what is in the article. The full sentence is: > Europeans could learn from Canada how to allow immigration in a fashion that the population embraces rather than tolerates, though a housing crunch has frayed that consensus of late. Far from sounding ignorant, the author sounds well-informed.

Canada is certainly not this example. Immigration is a big issue.

The only place where immigration worked I can think of was the USA, in the old times.

The recipe for successful immigration is very simple: no benefits, import only people with some money and with skilled jobs qualifications, hard stance against illegal immigration.

Anything else is a recipe for disaster.

Re: Why Canada Should Join the EU

#677

Post by jokethrowaway »

estreeper wrote: post #384
briHass wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this largely under-educated, low-skill workforce working menial/minimum wage jobs going to rescue the entitlements system? Canada's Southern neighbor has a similar issue: despite what may be morally correct, it's been a net negative for taxpayers, and the US doesn't have near the number of expensive social programs.

> it’s been a net negative for taxpayers This analysis[1] from the Cato Institute found the opposite: “immigrants pay more in taxes than they consume in benefits”. [1] https://www.cato.org/blog/fiscal-impact-immigration-united-s...

They're not talking about the low skilled illegal immigrants.

If someone can manage to clear the bar to immigrate in the US they're likely to be way more productive than your average american, so it makes sense that they're creating value for society.

Re: Why Canada Should Join the EU

#679

Post by idiotsecant »

bufferoverflow wrote: post #409
idiotsecant wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get some amusement out of people who are afraid of other cultures. Having a lot of cultures smooshed together is a culture. How do you think you got the culture you have now? Pro tip: the culture that existed when you were 12 years old might seem like it's the most emotionally 'correct' but it represents a blip in time and is no more or less significant than what came before or after it. Have some sense of perspect…

How do you mix a culture that throws gays people off roofs with a culture that celebrates gay people? To me it's pretty obvious not all cultures are good to mix with.

In response i'd suggest watching the star trek DS9 'root beer' scene between Garak and Quark.

The answer to bad ideas is not to isolate them. It's to outcompete them. The battlefield of the modern world is the hearts and minds of it's citizens. If our morality is superior and our ideas are successful, we should just keep doing what we do and let them spread, like a virus.

Re: Why Canada Should Join the EU

#680

Post by idiotsecant »

dataflow wrote: post #420
idiotsecant wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get some amusement out of people who are afraid of other cultures. Having a lot of cultures smooshed together is a culture. How do you think you got the culture you have now? Pro tip: the culture that existed when you were 12 years old might seem like it's the most emotionally 'correct' but it represents a blip in time and is no more or less significant than what came before or after it. Have some sense of perspect…

> Having a lot of cultures smooshed together is a culture. This reads a lot like "everything is a social construct". A culture is a property that's shared by the population. The absence of such a shared property is not its presence.

A monoculture is the least healthy kind of crop. We thrive the most when we incorporate the best ideas from the largest volume of idea space. We pay a price for this, in that we have to undergo the messy process of separating the good ideas from the bad but unless we're dead and stale as a culture we're doing that anyhow.

New is good, anything else is death. Anyone pining for a 'good ol days' culture is chasing a mirage that never existed in the first place and will do damage to themselves and everyone around them by trying.

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