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Apple unveils 'Passwords' manager app at WWDC 2024

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Re: Apple unveils 'Passwords' manager app at WWDC 2024

#671

I always feel like these password solutions are there to lock you into their platform. I would never use Apples nor Mozillas password solutions personally.

I used 1Password for years. Last year I decided to try out Apple's built-in manager (for which this new app is a pretty frontend for a feature that already existed). I was able to export all my passwords out of 1P and import them into 1P. Then my company gave us all free personal 1P accounts, and I decided to migrate back. I exported all my data out of Apple's password manager and imported it 1Password, then ran a sc…

Typo there: I was able to export all my passwords out of 1P and import them into Passwords. I think people got the gist from the context, but just in case.

Re: Apple unveils 'Passwords' manager app at WWDC 2024

#672
post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Plus, I sincerely believe Google is 'too big to fail' Google might be too big to fail (I don't think so, but could be wrong). The flip side of that is that google is too big to care . We all know from countless reports that they will evaporate your google account and everything ever associated with it, for no reason at all and zero chance of you ever being able to reach anyone to fix it. I can't see why anyone woul…

> I can't see why anyone would risk anything of value to such a platform that can destroy all your content at any second for no reason with no warning. The only real solution to this is to self-host, locally. Which isn't feasible for the vast majority of people.

> The only real solution to this is to self-host, locally. Which isn't feasible for the vast majority of people.

While that's a great solution, it is not the only one.

Do business with providers that are not too big to care. The ones where you can call them up and talk to a real human who is empowered to fix your problem.

Re: Apple unveils 'Passwords' manager app at WWDC 2024

#673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this is precisely the problem. If you want the right thing to happen, you can't allow the wrong thing to be more convenient. "The wrong thing is more convenient so STFU" is the flawed worldview, because it's what causes the wrong thing to continue happening. Now consider what happens if people do the opposite. Instead of defending convenience as an end unto itself as Moloch would have it, you create friction agai…

> Now consider what happens if people do the opposite. Instead of defending convenience as an end unto itself as Moloch would have it, you create friction against bad choices. Complain about them, refuse to assist your allies in making a mistake. Do things that make bad options less convenient and redirect people to better choices. What about making "the right option" better instead of making the "the wrong option" w…

These things are related. If people don't use the right option then it's starved of resources with which to improve.

Of course, you can also improve the right option independently of that, e.g. by making contributions. But now we're back to "Apple interferes with this by making it harder to tinker."

Re: Apple unveils 'Passwords' manager app at WWDC 2024

#674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this is precisely the problem. If you want the right thing to happen, you can't allow the wrong thing to be more convenient. "The wrong thing is more convenient so STFU" is the flawed worldview, because it's what causes the wrong thing to continue happening. Now consider what happens if people do the opposite. Instead of defending convenience as an end unto itself as Moloch would have it, you create friction agai…

The flaw in your logic is that you’re taking too myopic a view. In your world “making something worse” is somehow divorced from the tyranny of convenience, but in reality it’s not. Changing society is itself inconvenient, and therefore unlikely to happen unless leaving society as-is is less convenient.

But now you're just defining "convenient" as "worthwhile" which is hardly the same thing.

Re: Apple unveils 'Passwords' manager app at WWDC 2024

#675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> though a Mac and Android is a strange combination. Probably so, but there is one demographic well represented here that does this routinely: Developers. Macs are the default and often mandatory computers issued to developers at tech companies (I strongly disagree with this approach and think employees should get the platform they are most comfortable on, but Macs only is the current state of things in most places).…

For me it's pragmatic; MacBooks are or have been the best laptops, and Android phones have been the best value for money while also being less locked down. IPhones are just really expensive luxury devices imo. My phone will probably break for some reason out of my control within a few years of getting it, or it'll become outdated, so I want to get the best hardware + software combination I can for around ~$400USD

One point of an iPhone is that it lasts longer, but if you really want new hardware all the time, Android is a cheaper option.

Re: Apple unveils 'Passwords' manager app at WWDC 2024

#676
post #643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, good to know that U.S. feds now just need to send a single ping to get all the world's passwords on Apple devices.

I really recommend you stop and read the white papers regarding iOS and Apple's Security and Infrastructure design, instead of just regurgitating a talking point from reddit.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651 is a nice overview. The "key storage" column is the part to pay attention to. The keys to user keychains are stored on devices only.

Re: Apple unveils 'Passwords' manager app at WWDC 2024

#677

Normally I’m conflicted when a big tech company comes to stomp on a market of smaller app makers but the password manager industry has left me with little sympathy. Years ago I bought 1Password via a one off payment and set it up to sync via my iCloud Drive. It all worked great. Then they took VC investment and quickly every new feature was locked behind a subscription gate. I switched to Bitwarden. Then they took VC…

Apple is one of the few entities I'd trust for password management. Besides relying on them not being breached, devices I physically have make for good auth mechanisms. It's the one thing I really don't want to deal with a third party for. Irks me a bit how Apple knows this.

And it's not that big a deal to occasionally copy a password onto a Linux or Windows device, or better yet, use the iPhone to authenticate for it.

Re: Apple unveils 'Passwords' manager app at WWDC 2024

#678

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But have you thought to ask why that is? The general mechanism for free software to be developed is for the individual users to make modifications. Not all of them, of course, but the ones who know how to. Someone sees something wrong, fixes it. Apple interferes with this. If you don't like an app on your iPhone, even if it's open source, you can't just make a minor change because for that you have to pay $100/year a…

> Not only that, you can't distribute a half-finished app to the public -- even if it's free -- because it wouldn't pass review. Ahhh so you want the public to do your QA for you and don’t mind interfering with their productivity when the first iterations of your software are a buggy mess? I am ok with Apple trying to keep the pests out of their garden, or providing a lockable gate like TestFlight where I can go into…

> Ahhh so you want the public to do your QA for you and don’t mind interfering with their productivity when the first iterations of your software are a buggy mess?

"Open source" means developed by the public. The public isn't just doing the QA, they're doing the entire thing from the first line of code. Which is exactly the problem with Apple's interference -- they want you to have a finished app before you can share it with all the people who might have been willing to help you build it.

> TestFlight

And we're back to intentionally putting up barriers to exactly what open source needs to succeed.

Maybe 1% of users are programmers, and 1% of those might be contributors. But that's fine if you have a million users -- less than 0.1% of the world population -- because you could have a hundred contributors, which is enough to get something done. Which in turn allows you to improve and then get ten million users etc.

Testflight caps the number of users at 10,000. Now you've got 1 contributor instead of 100 and when that's not enough you're sunk. Meanwhile the "beta" is forced to expire after 90 days which creates friction for the users and makes them more likely to abandon you.

> Your open source devs are not always great at disclosing the fact that their software is half baked

People will figure this out pretty quickly when they try to use it. But then that's the point -- you try to use it, it sucks, but you can fix it yourself. The intention is to have this happen and then the app improves for everyone.

Re: Apple unveils 'Passwords' manager app at WWDC 2024

#679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But have you thought to ask why that is? The general mechanism for free software to be developed is for the individual users to make modifications. Not all of them, of course, but the ones who know how to. Someone sees something wrong, fixes it. Apple interferes with this. If you don't like an app on your iPhone, even if it's open source, you can't just make a minor change because for that you have to pay $100/year a…

Not sure of your reality, but my apple ecosystem just works . I spend nearly zero time fiddling with my rig just to get to a point of productivity but see Linux using peers in a constant state of tweaking trying to achieve and failing of what I have by just opening a box.

A lot of Linux users like fiddling with things, and then purposely choose the things they'll have to fiddle with. This is not actually required. You can buy a device from e.g. System76 and then use the preinstalled OS or something conservative like Debian Stable. It "just works".

The people compiling everything from source and messing with kernel modules are doing it because that's their hobby.

Re: Apple unveils 'Passwords' manager app at WWDC 2024

#680
post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think this is exactly what _most_ people want. Like seven people replied to say this, but they're all missing the trick. Most people want this because they're guided to want it. If you show people the convenience but not the risk, of course they want something with an advantage and no apparent disadvantage. But the disadvantage exists, it's just not immediately obvious. Then some corporate machine learning algori…

> Most people want this because they're guided to want it. If you show people the convenience but not the risk I think that what is convenient to you, or to fellow engineers, is not what is convenient to the mass public or non-technical people. Very simple solutions, which are often platform-specific, tend to be a lot easier in many cases -- not necessarily all cases, but when something is built-in to a device or OS,…

No part of that is intrinsic. Example: Everybody is constantly using Internet Protocol, a standard implemented by vendors the world over, many of which having never encountered one another and yet their devices and programs can still interact with each other. From the perspective of the ordinary user it "just works", but it is in no way vendor or platform-specific.

Indeed, this generally works better than vendor-specific technologies as soon as you encounter the real world where different people have different stuff. Safari works just fine with Linux webservers because they're interacting using open standards. Then you want to get your Mac to work with Active Directory and it's a frustrating mess because it's not open standards and neither vendor wants to facilitate the use of the other's proprietary technology.

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