Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

aljazeera.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

671–680 of 1001 posts

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#671

Post by aluminum96 »

dang wrote: post #662
aluminum96 wrote: post #644

Al Jazeera is an exceptionally disreputable source for coverage on this particular issue. It's not just their primary source of funding -- the Qatari state -- but also their abhorrent track record of running stories with no factual basis (such as in the wake of the Al-Ahli incident). I can't point to anything specifically incorrect about this reporting. But you have to take a lot of primary-source-based reporting on…

On HN, we've always gone by article quality, not site quality: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... . Having a HN thread about an article does not imply endorsement of everything, or even anything, on the site. In my experience, it's a mistake to make reliability judgements about major sources (such as news organizations) at site scope. To pick an unrelated example, we often get criticisms…

Wow, thanks for responding dang! It's like a fleeting encounter with a celebrity.

I see the HN policy, and understand it generally. But I am vocally lodging my objection in this particular case.

To put a finer point on it: I don't think I'm the only person in my community who has an extremely negative opinion of Al Jazeera, and its historical lack of neutrality on this issue. Having a balanced and nuanced discussion underneath an article from Al Jazeera is, in my sincere opinion, impossible. So why choose this source, when many more reputable sources have covered the suffering in Gaza?

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#672

Post by monocasa »

nahumfarchi wrote: post #653
monocasa wrote: post #616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, even Hamas currently calls for the '67 borders in their charter: > 20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its reje…

That's quite a bit of selective reading there. Where you see "'67 borders", I see "Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea". River = the Jordan River Sea = the Mediterranean sea => calling for the destruction of Israel. But sure, we'll take '67 as an intermediate step.

> Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.

I don't know how to read that except the willingness to compromise on 1967 borders, as long as those ejected in 1948 can return to their land and become Israeli citizens.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#673

Post by yyyk »

acdha wrote: post #438
mminer237 wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think an even bigger driver of terrorism than conflict is the fact that most people in Palestine have lived their entire lives in a state wholly governed by terrorists. From birth, children constantly hear how murdering Jewish civilians is one of life's holy accomplishments, how Jews are all racist liars, how Israel shouldn't exist, how Hamas is their rightful glorious leaders, etc. You shouldn't underestimate the…

I don’t want to discount the effects of that but most people are also capable of knowing when they’re not getting the whole story. Only around a quarter of Palestinians approved of Hamas before the war.

>most people are also capable of knowing when they’re not getting the whole story.

Most people are conformists.

>Only around a quarter of Palestinians approved of Hamas before the war.

But a lot more approved of violence and terrorism, and they did prefer Hamas over alternatives (that's why no election for 17 years - because everyone knew Hamas would win).

Basically, there's nothing Israel can do that will compare with the main driver in Gaza: Hamas control of media and education or ability to just conscript. If there was nothing Hamas could use as propaganda, they'd just invent something. You can't compare the ability to recruit of a terror organization to that of pseduo-state. The state will always win. The state has a tax base, police, media, ways to make one conform. The terror org always needs to compete with the local power and that makes it way more difficult.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#674

Post by dragonwriter »

monocasa wrote: post #666
bluescrn wrote: post #73

Meanwhile, Egypt seems to get a free pass, minimal criticism for keeping its border locked down while being adjacent to a terrible conflict? They could at least let the most vulnerable/sick/injured flee.

For one, yes Egypt is complicit in the situation of Gaza. They're paid ~$1.5B/yr by the US in defense aid that's contingent on them playing nice with Israeli defense policy which is mainly seen day to day in the Egyptian enforcement of the Gazan blockade. On top of that though, it's not clear the humanitarian solution is opening that border. With many high level Israeli officials calling for Gaza to be ethnically cle…

> On top of that though, it's not clear the humanitarian solution is opening that border. With many high level Israeli officials calling for Gaza to be ethnically cleansed, encouraging an evacuation from land that the Gazans might not be allowed back on to could be viewed in hindsight as assisting a crime against humanity.

Allowing people to escape murder is not "assisting with a crime against humanity", whereas stopping them from doing so is clearly exacerbating the crime against humanity.

Which is the point: Egypt isn't blocking Palestinian exits to stop Israel from ethnically cleansing Palestine, it is just counting on not letting that be done by pushing the Palestinians out as refugees being likely to create a pile of corpses that (1) Egypt won't need to feed and secure, and (2) Egypt can use internationally in political propaganda against Israel even more than it could use an expensive pile of refugees.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#675

Post by yyyk »

monocasa wrote: post #672
nahumfarchi wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's quite a bit of selective reading there. Where you see "'67 borders", I see "Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea". River = the Jordan River Sea = the Mediterranean sea => calling for the destruction of Israel. But sure, we'll take '67 as an intermediate step.

> Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus. I don't know how to read that except the willingness to compromise on 1967 borders, as long as those ejected in 1948 can r…

Note no promise of peace. So they just continue the war. Besides, return just means they can take over 100% from within. Either way it's not a 'compromise'.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#676

Post by ashirusnw »

tsimionescu wrote: post #453
nahumfarchi wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I don't think that is a reasonable take at all. 1. This is warfare, not civil law. Hamas, which is the sovereign in Gaza (there has been no Israeli military presence there for years), commited an act of war in which hundreds were killed, raped, and kidnapped. Israel, as a state, has the moral duty to fight back and make sure this never happens again. Otherwise, it breaks the most basic contract between citizen an…

You seem to be arguing from a bizarre perspective that Israel is the defender here. In reality, Israel is the aggressor, and Palestine is the state that has been under occupation and illegal blockade for decades. October 7th was an (illegal, abhorrent and criminal!) act of retaliation against previous Israeli aggressions, not an unprovoked attack. If Ukraine were to bomb a Russian city during the current war, no one…

Bizarre is viewing Israel as "oppressor" for disengaging entirely from Gaza, dismantling is own Israeli settlements despite massive protests by the seller movements, and only imposing a blockade once a terrorist group took absolute control (and threw Gays and Fatah opponents off rooftops to their deaths)

Not to mention the "blockade" is in fact Israel closing its own borders and Gaza has a third border with another country (Egypt).

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#677

Post by yyyk »

midasuni wrote: post #509
xdennis wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with the goal of a two state solution with Israel and Palestine co-existing according to the 1967 borders Why are the 1948-1967 borders considered so important? They lasted for 19 years. Also, in 1967 Gaza was occupied by Egypt. Do people want that again?

The 1967 borders were what was agreed in the peace process in the 90s. 1948 borders are irrelevant.

There was never any agreement on borders. You can look at any past offer and see one side or the other complaining why it's unacceptable.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#678

Post by dang »

aluminum96 wrote: post #671
dang wrote: post #662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On HN, we've always gone by article quality, not site quality: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... . Having a HN thread about an article does not imply endorsement of everything, or even anything, on the site. In my experience, it's a mistake to make reliability judgements about major sources (such as news organizations) at site scope. To pick an unrelated example, we often get criticisms…

Wow, thanks for responding dang! It's like a fleeting encounter with a celebrity. I see the HN policy, and understand it generally. But I am vocally lodging my objection in this particular case. To put a finer point on it: I don't think I'm the only person in my community who has an extremely negative opinion of Al Jazeera, and its historical lack of neutrality on this issue. Having a balanced and nuanced discussion…

Thanks for the kind reply! (but please don't prize my comments that highly, they don't merit it)

Re your point: I hear you, but given the nature of this particular article, I assume there isn't a more primary source with this material, which mostly consists of quotations. No one has mentioned any evidence (so far as I know) that the quotes are falsified. (And yes, this is different from whether the things the quotes are saying are true, whether they've been selectively edited, and other things.)

I know it's easy for me to post things like my GP comment without understanding the impact that it can have on readers. I've been trained through thousands of iterations (if not tens of thousands by now) to think this way, when in fact it's not obvious and is even counterintuitive to most people. When the underlying topic is as painful as this one, that's a problem.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#680

Post by [deleted] »

covercash wrote: post #582
edanm wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the rockets being fired into Israel is one threat, but the far greater threat is just Hamas repeating the October 7th invasion again. They've said, numerous times, that they will do it - invade Israel again and again, killing as many Israelis as they can. (Leaders have also said they will kill Jews anywhere in the world, btw.) If Israel doesn't take out Hamas, it is entirely unclear if it will be able to prev…

You can’t take out Hamas with military force unless you eliminate every Palestinian in Gaza. “Hamas” is just the current name for oppressed people pushed to their limits who are using the scraps at their disposal to fight back against decades of abuse. So long as there is an apartheid state there will be people who fight back with whatever they can get their hands on, no matter what they call themselves. Israel has a…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN