I work in the SAP industry as a consultant, but I hardly ever work directly with SAP. In fact, I work in a dept. whose primary purpose is to do all the non-SAP work, so 99% of the time I'm working with your typical modern stack(that I get to pick myself, usually), like nodejs/graphql/typescript, etc. I do however often work adjacent to SAP or have to integrate with it, and since I've been at this for a few years now,…
A big part of my recent consulting work for fortune 500 companies is to, in a sense, put a new UI on top of SAP. Not just SAP but several other big IT systems. My team maintains a large data warehouse with web and Tableau reports delivered to hundreds of business users. I don't know the internals of SAP. I really don't have to. For us, SAP is a collection of OLAP cubes that have a highly curated view of that part of…
What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)
671–680 of 703 posts
Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)
#672Earlier quoted context omitted.
Odoo comes to mind as well. Nowhere close to the commercial options in terms of ecosystem/features and hiring/consulting availability though.
If anyone thinks about going for odoo - which I did for a customer - do yourself a favor and try anything else. Here's why: The developer experience is terrible, simple template changes need a your modules to be "upgraded" which means every change takes several seconds at least. The quality of the app ecosystem is so bad you almost can't install any non-core apps if you want to be able to maintain your project. And a…
Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)
#673And yet. They thrive and grow. I always leave with the impression that it really does do things well after all, just not in obvious ways.
Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)
#674Earlier quoted context omitted.
The risk alone from a company switching ERP systems, or switching versions of the same ERP, is well documented in the press. Companies have lost tens to hundreds of millions on failed projects. So the pain points to switch to another platform must be so great even to think about going down this road. Like all ERP software, cost to implement is 2x - 3x the cost of the software. https://www.thirdstage-consulting.com/th…
One of the few things I remember from my IS management class in school was learning about Nike's massive ERP failure. If I remember right between the initial cost, lost sales, and money spent fixing the issue they lost $400 million and their stock price fell 20 or 30%. Switching costs and risk are the major reasons these systems stay around forever. If you've got something that works. Even if it's sub-optimal, you're…
As you say, the switching cost is way too high and dangerous. They moved billions and billions of dollars daily through a highly complex structures and complex laws in different jurisdictions across the USA. The business logic was built over the 40 years when the world was DOS. It's not like they are dumb and don't know linux or Windows exist and all that.
They brought in huge consulting companies all the time to see if they could get it upgraded, but no programming house, no consulting company would touch it. These consulotants turned down hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars, because 1) it was just too f-ing complex, and 2) if they messed up, the liability would be immense because of the dollars daily transactions, and what the dollars were used for. It would be an absolute shit-show of the first order if things were to go sideways. I'm positive that these consulting companies E & O (errors and ommissions) insurance company would refuse to insure them. Doing it wrong would be catastrophic on a corporate, but also national level. It would not be a matter of some stick-it notes from 3M not getting to the stores on time, or shoes getting to the shoe stores.
So, DOS in 2020.
Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)
#675I'm glad I'm seeing some SAP post on HN frontpage. Why? When my sister started to working at SAP working on documentation, I had to look at some of those. I noticed something like SAPUI5 and thought: hey, this looks pretty modern and nice and something that competes with Microsoft offerings! https://sapui5.hana.ondemand.com/#/topic/8b49fc198bf04b2d980... Then I see them documenting/pushing people in CI/CD direction (…
UI5 is a travesty. It is a complete disaster, and if I somehow ended up working on it, I would not put that experience on my resume out of shame.
Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)
#676Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't see why you'd split the two. Actual good functionality is UX. Lack of good functionality implies the user has a bad experience given the intended goal. Big players tend to do the minimum, either attracting with shiny red herrings or barely doing anything at all. Both are bad UX.
From talking to actual end users though I am convinced there is no universally good UX. Someone will not understand it no matter how perfect you think it is. Now I favor ugly but robust UX for business applications. The user doesn't have to love it, it's their job to use it. It just has to be efficient and comprehensive, not pretty
Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)
#677Earlier quoted context omitted.
"I feel there is a lot of room to develop better tools that are not so horrid" Probably not. SAP is an everything-to-everyone product. Using Fred Brook's terminology for essential versus accidental, the problem with everything boxes is that even just the essential complexity of such a product is so insanely large that they are sufficient to produce a "horrid" product. Of course they don't have just the essential comp…
Exactly right. Everyone dumps on enterprise software in general, not just SAP, but the truth is that enterprise software is hard. There are so many requirements and specific workflows that it becomes everything to everyone and thus “horrid”.
SAP and Jira are just not great software. They’ve got excellent sales teams, connections, and probably great support. That’s the key to getting user-hostile software into big orgs.
Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)
#678I worked in public accounting with some major corporations as clients. Every single company I interacted with used SAP. It is the de facto software in its field and is deeply entrenched. Its UX is the most horribly wicked thing I’ve ever come across. We would conduct walkthroughs with process control owners that showed us what they would do in SAP to perform their job functions, and it would take multiple, intelligen…
This is the kind of inefficiency that used to kill companies before the "everything is a monopoly" era. Nobody will ever replace SAP on the companies that use it, and if they are safe from competition, well, nobody will replace the companies either.
Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)
#679Earlier quoted context omitted.
SAP, and any other ERP, is just the operating system for your organization. If you run it intelligently, the OS won’t prevent you from getting a good outcome. In this case, it sounds like they should’ve bolted the JIT platform onto SAP
But people don't run it intelligently. For a lot of stuff the intelligent thing to do is use SAP as a plain database and program your own logic. But now what you really have is an inferior database with an inferior programming interface, and you pay through your nose for the privilege. Of course getting to somewhere useful is a battle if you have to use SAP consultants instead of real programmers.
Basic business logic is built into SAP - but because it covers all aspects of business, it’s a massive tangle of rules.
For instance, let’s say you get an invoice from a vendor. Now you have to update your balance with that vendor, and your general ledger. You have to record the new inventory moving in. Perhaps the inventory has a barcode, or a serial number with a warrantee date, or a batch with an expiry date. The inventory movement will be tied to the cost of that invoice - remember to take into account those exchange rates. Also, there’s a variety of ways to account for item cost. You will have had one or more purchase orders - those have to be closed. If the vendor is to be paid in a different currency, you have to do every accounting entry in your currency and theirs, and record the exchange rate differences. Your accounts payable are now in that other currency, which means that has to be updated all the time for accurate bookkeeping. You have to note which employee was the buyer. This buyer has targets and metrics to be tracked. Perhaps there are reports and alerts set up for them. You will have a budget, which may impact this transaction. Of course you also have master data for the vendor, the employee, and the items bought.
There is a lot more to this than the above, and this is for the simplest business case - one that happens hundreds or thousands of times a day depending on the business. Usually there are special considerations to program into the above as well. Now imagine what happens when a complicated situation arises, where you have complex transactions spanning months, many countries, and many other businesses. Sometimes there are legal rules built into the logic. Usually those rules only alply to one country. And I haven’t even mentioned freight or tax or landed costs from secondary invoices.
SAP is a ball of wire because it simply has to be.
If you built a new ERP, you will end up the same.
Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)
#680I am an SAP developer since kind of forever, my first job after university (since 2009). First I hated it, but the deeper I am entrenched, the more I see why you choose SAP: Because there really is no alternative. The data model is so complex because it is growing iteratively since the 80s. Hacker News is valuing businesses that adjust to the customer instead of going for some kind of purity. Another complexity espec…
> ABAP, the programming language of SAP, is quite nice nowadays I took a brief look at the ABAP wikipedia article and this insanity [1] stood out to me. I think after a decade of SAP you are too brain-washed to give an objective opinion anymore. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABAP#Spaces