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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

reuters.com

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#671

Post by gizmo385 »

ironcurtain wrote: post #658
jakuboboza wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good ? What about sending tanks against Lithuanians and you know...killing people. How good is this ? 700+ injured and 14 dead doesnt sound like something "genuinely good person" does. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_Events_(Lithuania)

Quoted post unavailable.

> the War of Northern Aggression

That’s some choice phrasing there. Mind explaining this framing? Pretty sure the only people I’ve seen use this phrasing were people who thought the confederacy and slavery were good things

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#672

Post by vintermann »

pm90 wrote: post #417
DubiousPusher wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see what you mean. I guess we'll never know. Because there was a remaking of Japanese society after the war in a democratic image. That just doesn't even appear as though it was attempted in post Soviet Russia. I don't kmow the origins of why America departed from its usual course of propping up the traditional land owning and wealthy bourgeoisie classes in it' s occupation of Japan. I know FDR personally held very…

The US never invaded Russia, so they didn’t have the kind of power they had over post WW2 Japan. Anyways even with that kind of power, the prevailing economic ideology at the time the Soviet Union fell was of extreme neoliberalism, so I doubt it would have helped anyway.

We do know what the US wanted though, because they were quite open about it, and they got it: in particular the neoliberal shock therapy reforms which were such a distaster.

Today, we also know that they were backing Yeltsin for a long time, and supported his 1993 attack on parliament which decisively turned Russia into the dictatorship it is now.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#673

Post by interfixus »

ironcurtain wrote: post #661
interfixus wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone previously pointed out, the perspective here is that Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia were invaded and forcibly annexed in 1940.

Very much like Hawaii and Florida, weren’t they? Weren’t those countries ruled for decade or so by dictators who ceased power in late 20s? Didn’t Soviet actually organized elections and then their parliaments voted to join the USSR? I’m sure it’s all a sham but history is a bit nuanced.

Oh I see. That makes it alright, then. Those Balts really should stop whinging.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#674

Post by shashurup »

credit_guy wrote: post #487

Rest in peace Sir. Because of you hundreds of millions of people are living a better life. A pity that Putin came shortly after and is in the active process of destroying a country (or two). But you couldn't control that. You did more than most people in the world to move humankind towards a better place.

I'm really astonished. In what kind of echo chamber do you live in? Have you been in Russia in 90's? It was not only an economical disaster, more than ten years we lived in a constant bombardment by the media of "revelations" about our lives before, kinda non stop shit storm (we even believed this was the press freedom as the west sees it).

In the hindsight it seems like it was impossible to devastate a country to such an extent even intentianally. Getting out of this shit strongly correlated with Putin.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#675

Post by IntelMiner »

ironcurtain wrote: post #658
jakuboboza wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good ? What about sending tanks against Lithuanians and you know...killing people. How good is this ? 700+ injured and 14 dead doesnt sound like something "genuinely good person" does. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_Events_(Lithuania)

Quoted post unavailable.

> the War of Northern Aggression

Of course you'd have a problem with the president who freed the slaves

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#676

Post by vbezhenar »

wiseowise wrote: post #608
vbezhenar wrote: post #576

Quoted post unavailable.

Why would he end up in hell?

Because he is a traitor to his people. I know not a single person so universally hated by his own people but Gorbachev. He caused collapse of great country, sold it for dollars and cola. The fact that he’s praised by western people further solidifies it.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#677

Post by IntelMiner »

eloy wrote: post #377
rkagerer wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone have a link to a picture of the Apple ad?

I wish I had it! I think I would have to travel to some physical German archive to lookup old magazines... Or maybe Apple itself has the original digital version in their archives.

Apple has DMCA'd people for hosting copies of their own ads as a hobbyist historical record

https://9to5mac.com/2020/01/27/the-unofficial-apple-archive/

Their Orwellian revision of their own history in the endless treadmill of the "one more thing" I'd be surprised if they truly have any of it still

"We have always been at war with x86"

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#678

Post by fadesibert »

euroderf wrote: post #649

Gorby came to DC for a summit with Reagan in December 1987. When his motorcade stopped to meet folks on the street, he was absolutely mobbed. I remember the news coverage (WashPost et al.) expressing surprise and bafflement. I think the power structure in the US did not expect such an outpouring of obvious hunger from the man on the street for an end to all the Cold War madness. "More popular than Reagan ?!" Mikhail…

Trivial pedantry - but the phrase is more commonly _requiescat in pace_

pacem would be the accusative[0] vs the ablative[1] - the difference being him being peaceful in rest, vs his rest being peaceful.

Nonetheless, I echo your sentiment.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accusative_case

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ablative_case

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#679

Post by simonh »

claudiawerner wrote: post #463
simonh wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every economic system has capital, even socialist ones, it just means property. What distinguishes capitalism is that individual rights over capital are respected. Capitalism is based on private property rights, and individual economic freedoms to buy and sell your labour or property. That means it’s fundamentally reliant on the robust rule of law to enforce those rights, the rights of those purchasing property and s…

The idea that capital is ahistorical (or at least, traces its origin to the concept of human property itself by being 'just' property) is not a claim to be made as though it were uncontroversial. In fact, many people proposing non-capitalist systems disagree the idea that capital is 'just property' for good reasons, which may be worth considering. You argue that the capitalist system presupposes these rights and the…

It doesn’t matter what you call it, capital is the same thing regardless of its ownership structure. Let’s call it woogum and the woogumist system if you like, that doesn’t change anything.

Capitalism is commonly defined as a system of economics based on private ownership, and associated rights such as free exchange of labour, free markets, etc as against state ownership. Systems based on cartels, oligarchies and corporatist systems aren’t capitalist because the oligarchs, corporatist entities, etc become part of the state system. They assume powers normally the prerogative of the state. Obviously there are different degrees, no two systems are identical and all such systems have some level of private ownership and trade. It’s all a matter of degree. Even the Soviet Union had some level of markets and private exchange.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#680

Post by rixrax »

idlewords wrote: post #61

Gorbachev secured his place in history by what he didn't do. While never endorsing the end of the eastern bloc, he made it clear beginning in the late 1980's that unlike his predecessors, he would not oppose democratic reforms in Eastern Europe by force. To general astonishment, he kept this promise, and with the regrettable exception of Lithuania this commitment to not repeating the crimes of his predecessors is Gor…

But the dissolution of soviet union is not over yet. You can see this nowhere as clearly as in russias attack on Ukraine[0] where imperialistic russians that dream of restoring the glory and borders of soviet union[1] are waging their genocidal war. Meanwhile they are using hunger[2] and energy as their weapons against the rest of the world[3].

If the russians are not stopped in Ukraine, then there is no reason to believe that they wouldn't rinse and repeat in Baltic states, Kazakhstan, Moldova, and all other now independent former russian states. Including Alaska[4], should opportunity represent itself.

To truly secure Gorbachevs place in history, world must decisively say no to the russians agressions in Ukraine, and help Ukraine deliver a humiliating defeat to the russians and the dissolution of soviet union reach it's logical conclusion by stripping russia and their dreams off of any status as military, or world power.

[0] https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-... [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26769481 [2] https://www.theweek.co.uk/news/world-news/russia/957367/russ... [3] https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/putins-en... [4] https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/03/19/does-russia-want-alas...

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