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“Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

nature.com

671–680 of 883 posts

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#671
post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you had the option to delay humanity's discovery of atomic bombs to late 20th century or after, and therefore delay any substantial deep understanding of the atomic physics beneath, you would probably do it. The alternative was 20-30 million more dead people via conventional means. There were many teams around the world working to build the bomb. One always wonders about the German team and why they were not fir…

Agreed on the first half of your comment. Philosophy of science, however, is a well established, important, and fascinating field. Keywords: Positivists/Viennese circle, Karl Popper and falsification, Feyerabend and Against Method, Thomas Kuhn and The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, W. V. Quine and the Two Dogmas of Empiricism, the Science Wars.

To add to that: the new experimentalists, Mayo‘s Error statistics and the rise of Bayesianism

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#672
post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not so fun fact: on May 29th in Chicago, the address with the highest number of arrests by far was at Trump tower, against peaceful protesters. Then the police department lied about the number of arrests that happened for looting, saying that there were more arrests for looting than protesters. If you're looking to build a better understanding of what happened, you might want to reconsider using wikipedia as your sou…

> on May 29th in Chicago, the address with the highest number of arrests by far was at Trump tower, against peaceful protesters. I am not surprised that the one place in town which has a strong connection to a sitting US president who is considered racist by protesters is a protest, and thus an arrest hotspot. I see no proof that the arrest was made against peaceful protesters. Other sources, by the way, speak of 108…

Heh. I'm the reporter who did the analysis and I absolutely assure you the data was not incomplete. Where in the article was that said? Maybe I'm missing something, but I've spent many hours looking at the arrests in those early days and I can't recall anything that I'd call "incomplete".

The reporting we did at Chicago Reporter was effectively in response to what was said in past reporting (like the one you link), which solely relied on the narratives given by the police, rather than actual thorough analysis. Our analysis found CPD's narrative about the number of people arrested for looting vs protesters to be completely false. CPD agreed that their original narrative was wrong.

Mind you, whenever you see anything about the protests from David Brown, remember: he said he's seen no evidence of kettling of protesters in August 2020[1], despite overwhelming information pointing otherwise, including video of CPD surrounding protesters. I'm not sure I'd trust anything quoted from Brown in that article.

Edit: if you want to look at the data yourself, here [2] you go. They remove the address info in this data, but journalists/students/nonprofits have access to an "authorize-only" version that has address info.

[1] https://twitter.com/heathercherone/status/129538805366677913... [2] https://data.cityofchicago.org/Public-Safety/Arrests/dpt3-jr...

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But we do.. Who is 'we' here? USA? Canada?

> >In the world we live in, this would be used to abort babies that don't pass the PGS to the vast majority of people who have this information. Same "we" as the line you responded to, and your own response.

>Same "we" as the line you responded to, and your own response

Is it the same? If China has a problem with abortion of female fetuses and I said "we" don't have that problem...does it sound like the same "we"?

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#674

This is in Nature Human Behavior. This is a social science/psychology journal, a field which is suffering from the reproducibility crisis, perhaps worse than any other field. So, any result in this field should be viewed with significant skepticism. This is true for research into population group differences, and extremely true for IQ research into race, which is almost hopelessly noisy and confounded. It is a simple…

IQ research is the one area in social sciences that does not suffer from reproducibility crisis. You're clearly not against it because of reproducibility; you are against it because it goes against your ideological worldview. > Second, research results in population group differences are social poison. They are memetic viruses that fuel violent extremism. We had a full summer of violent riots because of the "Black Li…

> You're clearly not against it because of reproducibility; you are against it because it goes against your ideological worldview.

Please avoid ad hominem arguments like this. They are unlikely to convince anyone, and on a topic as sensitive as this might be interpreted as personal attacks.

Your comment would have been more useful if you had restricted yourself to responding to GP's argument that the data is too noisy and confounded to draw serious conclusions.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think trans activism with kids is a severe violence. You think trans activism is equivalent to shooting someone? I mean, i think most people are going to dismiss you as crazy if you think words and ideas of any form are equivalently violent to shooting someone in the head. At the very least you would need to back up such a radical proposition with some very compelling arguments.

Epic straw man. Is your counter argument so poor that you must resort to defeating a comically false version of what OP said? Where in the world does shooting someone in the head come in based on what OP said?!?

Context is a thing.

Person was responding to a comment that mentioned shooting, and proposing an alternate situation. One presumes they are claiming the alternate situation is equivalent or their comment makes no sense as a response to the previous comment they were replying to.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The statement from Nature has been very carefully worded. The quote in the parent comment seems to suggest that perfectly valid scientific findings should be withheld if there is a possibility that bad people would misuse them. The consequence of this of course would be a complete victory of "Blank Slate"[1] Dogma (because any scientific finding that finds differences between social groups could be misused to undermi…

Imagine the confusion that would result by future CRISPR modifications to adults that would increase intelligence by replacing genes found in less intelligent people with genes found in more intelligent people. Imagine if those genes are only found in certain races. I guess we can't have that according to the journal's rules, can we? You will simply not be allowed to research or publish that because it would break th…

You’re arguing from a false premise. The Race to DNA link is weak. You get correlation easy enough, but the only time genes are race specific is when they only show up in a single family or similar tiny fraction of a population.

This shouldn’t be surprising when people for example categorize someone with 3 white grandparents and 1 black grandparent as black.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#677
post #649

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At the end of the day, a journal has a great ethical responsibility for the impact of what it publishes, and is within its rights to say "no" on that basis. You state this like it is or should be fact, but this is precisely the problem. Science should be the beginning of a chain starting at knowledge and leading to policy: science -> politics -> policy. It is not the job of scientists to try and predict or assume r…

> Science should be the beginning of a chain starting at knowledge and leading to policy I sympathise with the goal of separating science from cultural politics. It feels like I'm against the tide here but I actually think the great majority of the guidelines strengthen this chain by promoting clarity and eliminating cultural assumptions. For example, specifying that the commonly accepted and/or scientific meanings o…

> if you were an editor and received a manuscript which was perfectly fine up until the last line which said "and as well all know, homosexuals are weak-willed sissies", would you still go ahead and publish

No, because "weak-willed sissies" is subjective, informal, and indicative of an emotional value judgment in that context.

But suppose there were no sensationalism, and the paper instead showed a higher rate of suicidal ideation among trans people. Would that be publishable under the new guidelines?

Opponents of the research might argue no, because it suggests trans people to be weak and self-pitying.

Proponents might argue yes, because it reveals the oppression of a marginalized group and a societal duty to support them.

That's the trouble with conflating "what is" and "what should we do about it" or even "what should we think about it."

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#678
post #649

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Science should be the beginning of a chain starting at knowledge and leading to policy I sympathise with the goal of separating science from cultural politics. It feels like I'm against the tide here but I actually think the great majority of the guidelines strengthen this chain by promoting clarity and eliminating cultural assumptions. For example, specifying that the commonly accepted and/or scientific meanings o…

> if you were an editor and received a manuscript which was perfectly fine up until the last line which said "and as well all know, homosexuals are weak-willed sissies", would you still go ahead and publish No, because "weak-willed sissies" is subjective, informal, and indicative of an emotional value judgment in that context. But suppose there were no sensationalism, and the paper instead showed a higher rate of sui…

> Opponents of the research might argue no, because it suggests trans people to be weak and self-pitying.

That's not a reasonable argument, as suicidal ideation is just as likely influenced by external factors. Is your concern more about the editors abusing their own guidelines in an unreasonable way, rather than the guidelines themselves?

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#679
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be enforced by Nature refusing to publish papers with bad results, obviously.

Shouldn't nature already be doing that? The question is how do you define bad results if you include provisions for socially constructed feelings about whether results are socially and politically correct or not. I hope hope hope hope hope underneath all the crummy filler language and what appears to be rationalization for a distinctly unscientific expansion of editorial discretion to suppress unsightly factual resul…

> Nature is simply saying: don't study social constructs, it's not scientific, a phrase with which I think I loosely agree

A lot of the time, when someone in the Humanities use the term "Social Construct" they mean a categorization scheme that have overlapping categories, especially when used by someone in a way they don't like.

Someone with some level of understanding of natural science knows that this problem apply applies to a multitude of category schemes, if not most. In biology, one could argue that our definition of a "species" is a social construct. Even alive today, there are plenty of animals that exist on a continuum between different "species", and over evolutionary time, every living organism exists on this same continuum, and at the start, there were even no clear distinction between living and non-living.

The person in the Humanities like to use the word "essentialism", while still giving Humans special knowledge, when in reality we all live on a continuum that includes monkeys, fish, rocks and oceans. We're all recombinations of atoms and ions.

Still, there ARE clear and real patterns in this madness, and most of science is precisely about understanding these patterns. While we DO exist on a continuum, most of the continuum is empty, and especially if we consider only one snapshot of time.

A biologist can talk about "tigers" without making an effort to consider ligers and tigons, or pre-historic ancestors of modern-day tigers that were similar but not identical to modern tigers.

Biologists will also use the terms male and female tigers, knowing that the intermediaries are vanishingly rare. The continuum between them is there, but mostly empty.

Or a physicist may even speak about a "red" laser, knowing perfectly well that the wavelength used to separate "red" from "orange" is a "human construct".

So, if someone claims that "biological sex" is a human construct, they may be correct in some uninteresting way, but are primarily just obfuscating.

Re: “Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans”

#680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think trans activism with kids is a severe violence. You think trans activism is equivalent to shooting someone? I mean, i think most people are going to dismiss you as crazy if you think words and ideas of any form are equivalently violent to shooting someone in the head. At the very least you would need to back up such a radical proposition with some very compelling arguments.

Epic straw man. Is your counter argument so poor that you must resort to defeating a comically false version of what OP said? Where in the world does shooting someone in the head come in based on what OP said?!?

While we're listing informal fallacies:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation

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