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Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

mitadmissions.org

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Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#671

Post by stjohnswarts »

femiagbabiaka wrote: post #191

Definitely for the best. Standardized testing was pretty much the only reason I and many other working class folks I know could get into good schools -- I was never going to do a million side activities, and my summers were spent working, not building my academic resume. Of course the real tragedy is that we fixate so much on college, even prestigious ones, at all given how unnecessary they are for making people into…

Kind of the same. I was too poor to participate in extracurriculars. I was lucky to have clothes on my back and food on the table and electricity to do my homework and run my hacked together computer. I still graduated valedictorian. No sports, no music, nothing. I was on the chess team as a senior because we moved closer to the school, and I was able to walk to school in only 15 minutes which was huge for me. I was already a senior at that point, and it felt silly to start joining extracurriculars at that point. I had more time than some of the rich kids who were in everything in addition to keeping their grades top-notch. Between my great SAT scores and being valedictorian, I was able to go to great university that I might not have been able to attend otherwise.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#672

Post by Dig1t »

rayiner wrote: post #642
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything. It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial…

The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture. That is not to say that I think only test scores should matter. But the kinds of extracurriculars colleges value—in particular that they don’t value having a job or working in the farm—smacks of old money ideals.

Valuing something like breadth of experience and being a well rounded person might be considered one of the things that makes a western style education as good as it is. Compared to other types of university systems, for example the one in India which is extremely concerned with test scores and performance metrics, many people would consider the western one to be better (including many people in India who try to come to the US for their education if they can). Not saying it's the only thing that makes western education good, but I think it definitely plays a role.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#673

Post by danielheath »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #666
rayiner wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture. That is not to say that I think only test scores should matter. But the kinds of extracurriculars colleges value—in particular that they don’t value having a job or working in the farm—smacks of old money ideals.

> The notion of a "well rounded student" ... > is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture First of all, I don't know what "blue blood WASP culture" is. Explain that please. Second, there's nothing wrong with expecting students to participate in extra-curricular activities like music and art as a basis for admission. MIT is still going to evaluate those things.

Selecting for students whose parents can afford formal music, art and sport lessons is selecting for wealth. Having extra-curriculars you can document costs money and time.

Poor kids are getting 'well rounded' by spending summer break at work, saving enough money to survive the school year.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#674

Post by stjohnswarts »

aj7 wrote: post #613
davesque wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course the real tragedy is that we fixate so much on college This is what gets me. The whole concept of college, and especially selective, high profile colleges such as Harvard, MIT, etc., seems antiquated and almost entirely manufactured at this point. It's artificially crafted scarcity designed to create a market and brand. I feel the true, primary function of these institutions is to give the rich and powerfu…

No no no. The thesis topics are in graduate schools are more cutting edge, and the opportunity to interact with real science as an undergraduate are invaluable. I would tend to agree that excelling at a second tier university with a comprehensive program is an acceptable start. It generally gets you to a higher level. Competitiveness is about speed. Anyone can look something up. It’s about knowing things right off th…

It's a trade-off. I'd rather live in a democracy and take my chances with Covid-19 than live under an authoritarian regime. Even authoritarians are correct at least twice a day.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#675

Post by gaze »

neovive wrote: post #57
notacoward wrote: post #3

This is just so beautifully written it brings a tear to my eye. It explains their rationale, points to evidence, acknowledges shortcomings or gaps in knowledge, and shows empathy for those affected. Worth reading just for its pedagogical value, plus it's on an important topic near and dear to many hearts.

100%! As a parent of a child about to go through the college admissions process (with his heart set on MIT--of course), I want him to read this particularly for the later part of the article: "...you are also not your MIT application..." The acceptance rate is so low, that it should not be used as a measure of self-worth and accomplishment.

My read is that you can usually get here if you just fight long enough, lol. I didn't get in for undergrad or grad school, but am here doing a postdoc. My advisor here was also rejected for grad school and undergrad. In the end it's really, really important to remember it's just a school. It's a really good school with a good engineering/science culture, and I'm enjoying my time here a lot, but people make it out to be much more than it is. I think I did -- not that I'm disappointed.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#676

Post by faangiq »

linksnapzz wrote: post #598
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything. It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial…

If you recast your civilization as simply the sum total of the economic activity generated by fungible worker-units, that's the sort of thing you get. A giant. somewhat dilapidated luxury shopping mall with a military attached.

Very accurate description of America.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#677

Post by danielmarkbruce »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #666
rayiner wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture. That is not to say that I think only test scores should matter. But the kinds of extracurriculars colleges value—in particular that they don’t value having a job or working in the farm—smacks of old money ideals.

> The notion of a "well rounded student" ... > is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture First of all, I don't know what "blue blood WASP culture" is. Explain that please. Second, there's nothing wrong with expecting students to participate in extra-curricular activities like music and art as a basis for admission. MIT is still going to evaluate those things.

Blue Blood and WASP generally refer to people who come from rich/prominent families. Whether it's fair or not, the stereotype is a polo playing, boat shoe wearing type who has a vacation house somewhere fancy and family connections into good jobs etc.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#678

Post by userbinator »

strikelaserclaw wrote: post #638
muh_gradle wrote: post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time seeing US standardized testing as "better." All of my Korean peers who have studied for the CSAT or Suneung laugh at how easy the SAT/ACT math section is in comparison. K-12 education in the US is years behind at this point from many Asian countries. The fact that we are debating whether standardized testing for colleges and prestigious high schools (Lowell in SF, Stuyvesant in NYC, etc) should be…

I always wonder why these asian countries aren't doing laps around USA or other western countries if they were learning calculus in pre school.

Look at where the design and manufacturing skills (especially electronics) went...

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#679

Post by brewdad »

paulmd wrote: post #21
LewisVerstappen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far easier for rich students to game GPA, college essays and extracurriculars than it is for them to game the SAT. For GPA, they can hire a private tutor in the subject they're struggling with. There are services out there that will basically write your english essay for you / do your math/science homework. For college essays, they can hire college counselors to help them draft a compelling essay. For extra curr…

I don't really have evidence for this, but it's always felt like SAT/ACT coaching doesn't improve scores so much as get rid of some of the "dumb mistakes" that cost you score. It's gonna help you when the test writer was playing some gotcha tricks with phrasing or whatever, but if you don't understand the material, even narrowing it down to a 50/50 isn't going to get you a good score, and if you truly don't understan…

My kid didn't get to take an SAT/ACT due to Covid. They did end up with a substantially lower PSAT score due to one of those dumb mistakes. They missed one "easy" question on the math portion while nailing almost everything else. The difference between National Merit Scholar Finalist and a "really good score".

They're doing great at a top 50 university now but it probably was the difference between waitlist and admit at two top 15 schools.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#680

Post by amalcon »

dangle1 wrote: post #656
jacobr1 wrote: post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does testing higher than one's ability actually mean? I'm guessing either you think the test is an imperfect proxy for a different (more important) skill, or otherwise you have imposter syndrome.

Maybe some impostor, but at the time, there was a penalty for guessing. Between my risk-taking personality and the sense that I wasn't going to get out of the minor leagues by watching pitches go by, I 'swung' at every question and apparently got a lot of questions right that I couldn't actually explain why the answer was correct. Arguably, someone who knew more than I did but was too hesitant to go out on a limb abo…

If I remember correctly, in that period it was still EV-positive to guess if you could eliminate at least one incorrect possibility. Not everybody knew this, though. Simply having someone tell you that (or having the patience to read and understand the scoring rules) is a significant advantage over folks who didn't know.
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