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Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin

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Re: Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin

#671

Post by jessaustin »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #539
jessaustin wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This scheme finances the personal spending of every American worth more than $50M. Sure, any time they're sloppy enough to personally receive real income, they pay taxes on it. Usually they are not that sloppy. The income goes to shells or other assets in which they've "invested". The assets become more valuable, and thus can be used as collateral for larger loans.

I’ve worked with organisations that trade SLOCs other types of instruments that are typically used for these types of transactions. They can be used to defer taxable events in some cases (by taking a loan today instead of selling your shares/options), but there’s no way to use them to avoid paying taxes on local assets. This is especially true with Musk, because he’ll have to sell expiring options soon, which will be…

From the link in sibling thread:

His tax avoidance is even more striking if you examine 2006 to 2018, a period for which ProPublica has complete data. Bezos’ wealth increased by $127 billion, according to Forbes, but he reported a total of $6.5 billion in income. The $1.4 billion he paid in personal federal taxes is a massive number — yet it amounts to a 1.1% true tax rate on the rise in his fortune.

Why should we ignore these 13 years over which Bezos made $127B? Who would benefit from that?

Re: Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin

#672

Post by ashtonkem »

pandaman wrote: post #668
ashtonkem wrote: post #667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re making a lot of implicit assumptions here. For example, in this discussion there is no guarantee that the average current mortgage is the same as the mortgage held by the current landlord charging the prevailing rent. In my experience it’s pretty typical for rented houses to not be recently purchased. If you have evidence that it’s the norm for landlords to rent below their operating costs, by all mean…

I gave you an example of my house, have not I? If I were interested in renting it I would not be "underwater" and any non-negative rent would be better for me than selling/renovating/keeping it off market. Note that I am not making a statement about every house, to rebut your assertion that all renters pay no less than the landlord's taxes + mortgage + insurance it's enough to show some (even one) counter example and…

I do not find your house to be persuasive for larger trends, no. I responded to the other bit already.

> Note that I am not making a statement about every house, to rebut your assertion that all renters pay no less than the landlord's taxes + mortgage + insurance it's enough to show some (even one) counter example and not to prove that all or, even, typical renter does not do so.

Don’t be a pedant, we were clearly talking about the typical renter.

Re: Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin

#673

Post by nicoffeine »

roenxi wrote: post #670
nicoffeine wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Adjust that for the fact that they have basically no rational reason whatsoever to commit crimes They may have no rational reason to fear prosecution, but they commit crimes all the time. Becoming untouchably wealthy does not remove base desires from anyone, it only shields them from accountability. "The uber-rich also shield their wealth through elaborate purchases of real estate, yachts, jets and life insurance.…

They are billionaires. They can probably just buy what they want, even for some of the more out-there base desires. Why risk jail time? You seem to be going to tax minimisation - sure, the billionaires have a massive advantage when they engage with the law relative to you or I - but there is no reason they should go to jail for that. The basic assumption is if you have multiple accountants doing your tax return then…

I'm not talking about Zuck trying to buy a personality in the form of a custom yacht. I'm talking about Epstein and people like that who prefer to rent people against their will, or the Sacklers who will gladly set ethics and death tolls aside if there is enough profit opportunity.

Billionaires should to go jail for tax fraud, preferably in proportion to the amount of money they stole. They are not running their itemized deductions by a typical accounting firm. They are seeking out teams of lawyers and accountants with a reputation for hiding money, and paying millions of dollars because they expect them to be good at it.

Re: Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin

#674

Post by pandaman »

ashtonkem wrote: post #672
pandaman wrote: post #668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I gave you an example of my house, have not I? If I were interested in renting it I would not be "underwater" and any non-negative rent would be better for me than selling/renovating/keeping it off market. Note that I am not making a statement about every house, to rebut your assertion that all renters pay no less than the landlord's taxes + mortgage + insurance it's enough to show some (even one) counter example and…

I do not find your house to be persuasive for larger trends, no. I responded to the other bit already. > Note that I am not making a statement about every house, to rebut your assertion that all renters pay no less than the landlord's taxes + mortgage + insurance it's enough to show some (even one) counter example and not to prove that all or, even, typical renter does not do so. Don’t be a pedant, we were clearly ta…

It was not clear to me, I thought you made a general assertion about the economics of real estate which is false on its face. I am not equipped to talk about typical renters since I don't have data. All I can find is the Census statistics showing that average national rent is less than mortgage: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/HSG860219

Re: Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin

#675

Post by roenxi »

nicoffeine wrote: post #673
roenxi wrote: post #670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are billionaires. They can probably just buy what they want, even for some of the more out-there base desires. Why risk jail time? You seem to be going to tax minimisation - sure, the billionaires have a massive advantage when they engage with the law relative to you or I - but there is no reason they should go to jail for that. The basic assumption is if you have multiple accountants doing your tax return then…

I'm not talking about Zuck trying to buy a personality in the form of a custom yacht. I'm talking about Epstein and people like that who prefer to rent people against their will, or the Sacklers who will gladly set ethics and death tolls aside if there is enough profit opportunity. Billionaires should to go jail for tax fraud, preferably in proportion to the amount of money they stole. They are not running their item…

Most of your points I'm ignoring, but just pointing out the part that seems most obvious to me...

If a large team of expert lawyers and accountants comes up with a plan of action, the odds of it being illegal are tiny. It isn't a fair process, unbiased or transparent. But it doesn't make much sense to expect that billionaires would be jailed for tax fraud. They've got more money than they can spend, why risk going to jail at all. They might do that, but it isn't a rational thing to do.

Sure it can happen, but there needs to be actual evidence before anyone should assume it is widespread.

Re: Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin

#676

Post by snypher »

mlindner wrote: post #664
toomuchtodo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Symbolic move with some logistic practicality with Boca Chica and his 400 sq ft tiny house [1] being home base at Starbase. All signs point to Tesla continuing manufacturing at Fremont and they just opened a Megapack manufacturing facility in Lathrop, CA (hiring 1k-2k workers) [2]. The irony that "pro business, less regulation" Texas doesn't allow direct to consumer sales of Teslas. [1] https://www.architecturaldiges…

Your source is incorrect, Musk has denied living in a prefab house. He lives in one of the small houses in Boca Chica village.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sergeiklebnikov/2021/07/03/wher...

Re: Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin

#677

Post by mrep »

dragonwriter wrote: post #657
mrep wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really doubt it. The bay area has the most absurd housing prices I've ever seen. Looking on zillow, I've seen places that aren't as good as mine in Chicago go for 2-4x the price I paid. It is absurd and Illinois isn't known for being a low tax state recently.

> Looking on zillow, I’ve seen places that aren’t as good as mine in Chicago go for 2-4x the price I paid. I’m…not convinced that’s an unreasonable ratio between the Bay Area and Chicago.

Should have just said 4x cause the 2x condos I saw where acceptable to me but way worse. This website [0] lists about a 4x price difference on average price per square foot.

That is a ridiculous cost of living difference for the most expensive purchase one will likely make in their life.

[0]: https://www.propertyshark.com/Real-Estate-Reports/2020/07/07...

Re: Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin

#678

Post by AmericanChopper »

jessaustin wrote: post #671
AmericanChopper wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve worked with organisations that trade SLOCs other types of instruments that are typically used for these types of transactions. They can be used to defer taxable events in some cases (by taking a loan today instead of selling your shares/options), but there’s no way to use them to avoid paying taxes on local assets. This is especially true with Musk, because he’ll have to sell expiring options soon, which will be…

From the link in sibling thread: His tax avoidance is even more striking if you examine 2006 to 2018, a period for which ProPublica has complete data. Bezos’ wealth increased by $127 billion, according to Forbes, but he reported a total of $6.5 billion in income. The $1.4 billion he paid in personal federal taxes is a massive number — yet it amounts to a 1.1% true tax rate on the rise in his fortune. Why should we ig…

Because the wealth of Jeff Bezos according to Forbes is just the amount of Amazon shares he owns, multiplied by the price of the stock on whatever day it was that somebody at Forbes decided to work out how much he was worth. Bezos, just like you and I, pays tax on his income. He only gets taxable income from the value of his Amazon shares when he sells them, which like most founders, he doesn’t do very frequently.

You’re literally just getting upset at him for not liquidating his entire position of Amazon shares (or options) every year. If he ever wants to turn the theoretical number some Forbes intern came up with for his net worth into income, then he’ll have to pay tax on it. He could theoretically live the rest of his life without selling his shares if he wanted to, just like you or I never have to sell any shares, or property, or any other type of asset we own. However if he did that, the IRS is going to come and take the tax he owes from his estate.

There is no tax evasion taking place here, this isn’t even a loophole. It’s the same treatment everybody gets.

You don’t have to sell your assets if you don’t want to, and you don’t make a taxable profit from selling your assets… unless you sell them. The propublica article you’re quoting is designed entirely to rage-bait people who don’t want to think about the topic long enough to figure that very basic fact out.

Re: Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin

#679

Post by nicoffeine »

roenxi wrote: post #675
nicoffeine wrote: post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about Zuck trying to buy a personality in the form of a custom yacht. I'm talking about Epstein and people like that who prefer to rent people against their will, or the Sacklers who will gladly set ethics and death tolls aside if there is enough profit opportunity. Billionaires should to go jail for tax fraud, preferably in proportion to the amount of money they stole. They are not running their item…

Most of your points I'm ignoring, but just pointing out the part that seems most obvious to me... If a large team of expert lawyers and accountants comes up with a plan of action, the odds of it being illegal are tiny. It isn't a fair process, unbiased or transparent. But it doesn't make much sense to expect that billionaires would be jailed for tax fraud. They've got more money than they can spend, why risk going to…

> Most of your points I'm ignoring

Easier than a counterpoint, sure.

> Sure it can happen, but there needs to be actual evidence before anyone should assume it is widespread.

Do[1] you[2] read[3] the[4] news[5]?

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-01/russian-b...

[2] https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-billionaire-behind-the-bigg...

[3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2021/04/16/ta...

[4] https://slate.com/business/2014/05/richard-branson-tax-fraud...

[5] https://www.forbes.com/sites/ywang/2021/08/24/companies-link...

Re: Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin

#680

Post by 0xBDB »

thebradbain wrote: post #300
refurb wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck finding a million dollar house in the Bay Area. And TX has a sales tax of 6.25%, while SF is 9.25%. And no state income tax in TX. It’s not even close.

That's a state sales tax of 6.25%. Austin and Dallas are at a minimum of 8.25%, for example. Though if you're in a specialized planning district, you can be looking at sales taxes of 10%+. Cities have their own sales tax. And so can school districts (and they can have their own property taxes, too). And sure, you're right, there's not much housing under $1M in the Bay Area. That doesn't change the fact that a $1M hom…

"Though if you're in a specialized planning district, you can be looking at sales taxes of 10%+"

The maximum cumulative rate by law is 8.25%.

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