Live data from Hacker News

Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

reuters.com

671–680 of 688 posts

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a substantially-manipulated negative-sum distributed Ponzi scheme. The most blatant example of a naked emperor I've seen in my lifetime. And it consumes the energy of Argentina to achieve as much work as a Raspberry Pi.

Missed a couple of early opportunities to buy eh? Don't worry about, expending your energy is going to get you nothing. Even if it all implodes tomorrow all you can do is say "I told you so". And you may feel superior to others, but no one will care. And if it doesn't implode you are here expending energy unnecessarily, which, we have already gathered, is an activity that you don't appreciate.

Would you please not cross into personal attack? The GP comment wasn't good, either, because it's much too generic and repetitive. Discerning readers are weary of this repetition, which is getting shallower and nastier as it continues.

Nonetheless, what you posted was considerably worse. Please don't take threads in degenerate directions.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Edit: we've had to warn you about this repeatedly in the past. It seems like you (mostly) improved for a while—that's good. Please do that instead.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#672
post #458
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But surely most of the coins were lost when they were cheap rather than now? If that's the case most of the deflation stemming from lost coins already happened and isn't going to happen in the future, so it's not really a big issue.

Unless they were only presumed lost. Imagine someone had the power to suddenly activate whatever fraction of the contemporary USD supply their family had in 1800, proportionally scaled to the amount of USD circulating now. And in the deflatory bitcoin world, the amount of tokens in circulation might eventually end up being merely a tiny fraction of what some presumably dead addresses hold. An address like that lightn…

Would they even be able to cash out though? Even a small transfer from a presumed-dead wallet can trigger a massive market crash in your scenario. Now if they just want to watch the world burn, that’s another matter.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's not a ponzi scheme. It's a MLM/pyramid style scheme. The idea over the long term is that there are more future investors than past investors and therefore there will be more money in the future than in the past. However, returns only last until growth limits have been reached. The problem is that everyone who buys Bitcoin wants those gains but they are exclusionary/rivalrous by definition.

By that definition any stock that doesn't pay a dividend is a pyramid scheme. Of course, if you believe it has no value whatsoever, then anything can be seen as a pyramid scheme.

I was going to make a similar comparison. I casually invest and trade crypto and stocks, I have been burnt when early adopters sell off after a company releases a good announcement. After a good announcement, new investors will buy and early investors sell off at their expense, I've seen this result in a stock losing more than 40-50% of it's price, sometimes it will never recover. I think both markets are affected by similar forces.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#674
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If $SPY dropped 40% we'd all call it a crash. This isn't that different If $SPY was 40% up since last month, would that be normal? ETH is still currently higher than its value from April 19th. Cryptocurrency market is extremely volatile. This isn't that far from normal.

> Cryptocurrency market is extremely volatile. This isn't that far from normal. If that's true then cryptocurrency is pretty much worthless to use as currency. A desired property of currency is to not have wild fluctuations in value on a weekly or monthly bases.

> cryptocurrency is pretty much worthless to use as currency.

I agree. I used to think that this would decrease its value, but that hasn’t happened.

There are crypto pegged to specific currencies, like USD, but the transaction fees are so high that it’s still not useful to use as currency unless I have lots of really high transaction values.

I don’t have crypto holdings but, for example, since Tether is traded on ethereum there’s a $21[0] fee for any transaction.

This may be worse than the fluctuation problem since a $21 fee on any purchases wouldn’t work for me. Comparing the fees on using a check or cash, this sucks.

I suppose this gets competitive with visa/MC, if I assume a 3% fee, around $700.

[0] https://ycharts.com/indicators/ethereum_average_transaction_...

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In another meaning, currency is a thing that is traded and has an expectation of growing value over time. What? A painting is currency? A house is currency? No.

If used as such, yes they are. In other cultures things such as beads, neck rings, shells have all been used as currency. In modern times diamonds are used as currency, and in some illicit circles so are paintings or other artwork.

No, not really.

Paintings aren’t used as currency, they are used as assets or stores of value.

Similarly, diamonds are pretty rarely used to actually transact and are rather just asset stores. It goes cash->diamond->cash; not cash->diamond->something else.

Anything can be traded or bartered that doesn’t make it currency. Some cultures used beads and shells and stuff but don’t any more. That doesn’t make beads currency.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#676
post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are a US citizen you will have to pay taxes in dollars.

Dollars are one of the easiest things to buy with Bitcoin, so how is that a problem? I also need water to live my life, but that doesn't make me feel the need to price everything in gallons of water.

Fluctuating prices suck for paying taxes.

Buy bitcoin at $1 on Jan 1, sell at $10 on dec 31. I now owe taxes on $9 in gains, so I’ll need USD$3 on April 15. If on Jan 2, I buy more Bitcoin at $10 and it drops to $6 on April 15 that will suck because then I’ll need to sell half my Bitcoin to pay taxes.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#677
post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bulk of btc gains were from 2010-2013. The cagr of BTC from early 2018 onwards is not that great.

Up 20x since 2018 is not that great?

Jan 1, 2018 BTC price was $13k. Price today is $41k.

Not 20x, that’s a little more than 3x.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#678
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be very surprised if your tax agency agrees that moving via USDT does not trigger capital gains. Then again, I'm operating under the impression most people cheat on their taxes w.r.t cryptos

US only. It seems even Puerto Rico doesn't ask capital gains on crypto.

I think that’s more a function of Puerto Rico not having federal taxes than anything about crypto (ie, no capital gains or income tax on anything, including crypto).

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. no, you cant get FX. capital controls. I can't find where this is true. There are some restrictions about denominating some contracts, etc. in FX, but nothing about investing in foreign currencies. And it looks like many Turks are in fact doing this [1]. On the other hand, after a non-zero level of crypto hype [2], a lot of Turks invested in crypto only to fall prey to some bonkers scams [3]. I know the typical…

1. Turkey had all sorts of controls in the past, and they will return. There are soft curbs in place right now. Yes, people subvert them, just like they __criminally__ circumvented controls in the past. [to your point about being a criminal, holding dollars in many countries is a crime, and many are committing that heinous crime as we speak] a. https://www.duvarenglish.com/turkey-could-resurrect-past-def... Scams: Pe…

(First, I love this post; very excited to dig in)

--FX controls--

Yeah, so I argue all the time that lumping in places like the US/UK/France/Germany with places like Turkey or Venezuela doesn't make sense because of the differences, and that governments can just use the violence monopoly to coerce people to do whatever. In other words I argue that the "crypto fixes monetary policy mismanagement" argument is pretty ignorant. But on the other hand, my argument is also ignorant because:

- US/UK/France/Germany mismanage monetary policy tremendously: recessions kill people, there's deep income inequality directly linked to monetary policy, etc.

- Crypto does actually insulate against inflation (I mean, kind of anyway), and the scam of the day doesn't make that any less true.

- People do use crypto for useful things--USDC in Venezuela as you point out is useful, and to the people it's useful for, it's definitely not nothing.

--Scams--

I'll admit scams aren't as bad now. But on the other hand I think a lot of that is because Western governance and money got involved and people went to jail.

--Being Permissionless--

The way I think of this is based on social contract theory, i.e. I strongly believe that permissionless systems evolve into systems of coercion, because people will amass power and use it against each other. Maybe that's getting a 51%, mining, controlling exchanges, controlling the use of or purchase of crypto, etc. To kind of skip to the end here, I don't believe the libertarian ideal of individual, free actors can ever exist, because the benefits of teaming up and coercing are so dominating.

So I'm "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" on this. If we're faced with roving bands of street crypto gangs, we should just make a bigger gang and establish some rules. That's basically a government or a bank, and then like, maybe we'll feel like we wasted a lot of time. Unclear.

--Governance and politics--

The definition of politics is "the process by which more than one person makes decisions". They're pretty inescapable. And so is governance, FWIW. That said, to your point, I think you can do a lot to dilute it. You get into kind of a "choose your tyranny" situation in these cases though like, do you choose:

- Tyranny of the majority vs. the minority (collective action vs. individual rights)

- Tyranny of the state vs. the mob (central vs. diffuse authority)

I don't know exactly where Bitcoin lands on this, tbh. On the one hand you could say it's diffuse authority because of PoW, or because of the consensus algorithm, or the "no middleman" stuff. On the other, you can say that because devs control the protocol, it's super centralized. Suffice it to say it's complicated.

--Other coins--

The refrain I often hear is "Bitcoin is just a protocol, anyone's free to start their own separate network", but that hasn't been successful. It suggests that what's important is not necessarily the protocol, but the network effects of so many people using the network. Like, there are better coins out there (Monero, Zcash, probably ETH) and coins using the exact same protocol you could buy into for way less than Bitcoin. These all test the hypothesis that the protocol matters more than the market cap or user count. But the test came back, and the results are that network effects and market cap pretty much explain everything. More than anything, this makes me pessimistic about cryptocurrencies. I think it's beyond clear Bitcoin is a speculation casino, altcoins are for hipsters, we've built an abominable bubble, and we've burned an insane amount of carbon to do it.

--Lightning--

Well, I guess I'm absolutist about financial transactions. I really can't imagine building a(nother) financial network that has unfixable risks of fraud built in. One of the promises I most hoped blockchain tech delivered on was fixing fraud. But you really can't, Sybil is in tension with latency and availability (either 100% of the nodes agree something happened or there's room to take over enough nodes to commit fraud--sure at 99% it's very very hard, but that's not the same as impossible, but also that might be fine), and you have computational complexity problems besides, i.e. why would anyone volunteer to process transactions for free, which also costs them electricity or w/e.

More concretely, I just can't seem to set a limit in my head of what would be an acceptable amount of money to lose to Lightning fraud. Too low, like $5, and you drastically limit its utility. Too high, like $50, and you essentially can't use it in poor parts of Africa for example, where people aren't gonna risk a month's income on your dodgy protocol. Well, maybe they well as long as you don't tell them it's dodgy.

--Fix the money, fix the world--

I have never heard this, and I absolutely love it. But it actually made me think that maybe what really irks me about cryptocurrency is that it accepts the premise of capitalism. I actually think money is the problem. Like, when you think about the lengths people are going to to mine BTC, which is a system deliberately set up to get people to process transactions, it feels exactly like capitalism run amok. None of this is good, right, like no one thinks the state of BTC mining or the tenuousness of ETH PoS (don't get me started) is really what success looks like.

I just don't see how cryptocurrency fixes our social ills, and at the end of it, I can't help but think of it purely as a distraction from income inequality. I'm not super interested in fixing the banking/currency/investment system. I think people should get food, clothes, child care, shelter, health care, transportation, and education for free. Anything past that is a bonus, and I don't care what currency it's denominated in.

I think the cryptocurrency community named the villain right: investment bankers. But like, now the two communities are inseparable, and some of the most lauded people in the crypto community are essentially investment bankers, just in a handful of crypto commodities. Are average people getting rich from Bitcoin more than the already wealthy? It certainly doesn't seem like it to me.

So I think we need a little bit of a reset. There's clearly a lot of energy around this stuff, whether it's the crypto community, OWS, progressive Democrats, whatever. I think if we got our shit together and worked for big, structural change, we could really do something--in our lifetimes. But from where I sit, crypto ain't it.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine, I don't think you have any evidence for your position though. You could easily make the opposite argument that Doge is basically a marketing campaign for BTC and will bring in more investment dollars than it sucks away. It's not zero sum.

Why would BTC need a marketing campaign? Isn’t it a value store? Or was it a currency? Or is it perhaps a bubble of nothingness that actually would need a marketing campaign? I have put about $1000 into various cryptos as a hedge, but I fully expect to lose it all and the day can’t come soon enough.

Saying something acts as a marketing campaign != saying it needs a marketing campaign, I'm not sure how you made that leap..

My point is that Doge doesn't necessarily take cash inflows away from BTC, describing a possible mechanism for the opposite phenomenon, not that anything needs a marketing campaign.

Post reply on HN