Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities • Hacker News Board

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#671

Post by u801e » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 2:43 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #670

u801e wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another way to help retrain motorists' expectations is to do better to keep up with traffic. Whether a cyclist can maintain 20 mph or just 10 mph isn't going to make a difference to the motorists. But taking the lane by default will train them to change lanes to pass like they would when encountering any other slow vehicle.

And while they're being trained, bicyclist get hurt. Its a difficult problem, and we're in a difficult place. I don't know of a good solution.

How does the bicyclist get hurt when the driver changes lanes to pass? Bicyclists actually get more lateral clearance when that happens compared to when they're keeping further right and the motorist tries to squeeze their vehicle between them and oncoming traffic.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#672

Post by tomjen3 » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 2:48 PM UTC

occz wrote: post #270

moistbar wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if you've ever driven in an American city, but those streets can barely fit a single lane of car traffic in some cases. Philadelphia in particular has streets so narrow that the line of parked cars along the side is enough to basically block the whole street. It's already incredibly uncomfortable to drive on those streets, so I don't get why you're so surprised that people would be angry about further in…

It should not be comfortable to drive around in a city. You are in a place with lots of people you can harm with your vehicle if you drive around fast, you should be driving slowly and paying close attention to your surroundings. Proper bicycle infrastructure (separated bike lanes etc.) and quality public transportation is the solution - the comfortable option should generally be to take a train/metro/bus/tram/boat.

Please. Try to make the public transport comfortable. That means a seat (I get that in a car), not having to crawl over somebody else next to me or have them sit too close.

It means not having to worry is a fight is about to break out, having some punk shine a laser in your eyes (happened to me), having space to put down my bag and some place to put my feet (I am short, I don't reach the floor in most busses). It means no crying children (meaning no small children on the buss at all). It means that and a million other things.

It also means I don't have to stand in the rain to wait for a bus, ever.

Oh, and it means no pandemic. I am not going to sit in an enclosed space with strangers at this time.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#673

Post by foxyv » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 2:52 PM UTC

raffraffraff wrote: post #636

nightski wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea my point is that if you want to be less car centric, maybe try moving out of the big city. It's ironically easier to obtain that lifestyle in a small city in America than the "walkable urban utopias" everyone seems to desire on HN.

Super obvious response, but it depends on the city. Smaller denser European cities that were not designed, but evolved over hundreds of years from earlier settlements, don't handle car traffic very well and are better suited to walking and cycling (or battery operated scooters). But even larger cities over here work well for walking and cycling because you tend to find lots of bars, restaurants, convenience stores an…

It seems that everything is way too far apart because it's all separated by huge sprawling parking lots that are mostly empty. 50-70% of the acreage is devoted to cars not even counting the ultra-wide roads and only occasional pedestrian crossings every half mile. These roads usually have speed limits well above 45 mph. The worst examples I can think of are Scottsdale AZ and Irvine CA.

It isn't surprising that so many cars are on the road when just to cross the street you need to walk a quarter mile on average. Then you have to cross the death trap parking lots with zero shade and 120 degree black top.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#674

Post by moistbar » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

rtlfe wrote: post #429

moistbar wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're claiming that people will still ride their bikes to work when it's 20 F outside, you're incorrect.

I'm not sure how to respond to somebody so confidently asserting something so obviously false, but maybe photographic evidence will help? https://nypost.com/2020/12/20/cyclists-frozen-out-of-bike-la...

I'm not sure how to convince someone that people stop going outside when the weather sucks. But hey, you've got a New York Times article, so that obviously means my eyes are wrong, right?

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#675

Post by _dax6 » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

chucksta wrote: post #308

moistbar wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if you've ever driven in an American city, but those streets can barely fit a single lane of car traffic in some cases. Philadelphia in particular has streets so narrow that the line of parked cars along the side is enough to basically block the whole street. It's already incredibly uncomfortable to drive on those streets, so I don't get why you're so surprised that people would be angry about further in…

Most streets of that size Philadelphia do not require a bike lane. But say they tiny fraction they took of 11th which is massive... https://www.inquirer.com/transportation/philadelphia-street-...

Having biked in Philadelphia, only Center City has anything approaching usable bike lanes, and even there they come and go seemingly at random in places.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#676

Post by moistbar » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 2:56 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #452

moistbar wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're claiming that people will still ride their bikes to work when it's 20 F outside, you're incorrect.

You couldn't be more wrong: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.euronews.com/amp/2021/01/22... If you build the right infrastructure, people will ride it.

I don't know how to convince someone that people stop going outside when the weather gets cold. I thought that was a normal fact of life for everyone who doesn't have an outdoor job.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#677

Post by nradov » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

piva00 wrote: post #589

blix wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pre-covid world is kinda over. Density has very clear downsides that have never been more apparent. I don't know how often you do the train + car rental thing, but the friction is much, much higher than driving (especially if you have any sort of gear like you would for skiing). Not everyone wants to be so contricted both in freedom of movement and in living space.

The friction of owning a car is much, much higher than having to care a few times a year on how to carry your skis or sporting gear on a train and renting a car afterwards. Personal anecdote: I was born, grew up and lived up to my mid-20s in São Paulo, Brazil. It's a city where a car is a basic necessity, much like in the US, public transportation sucks and is spotty, never on time. I owned cars, I loved the friction…

It really depends on where you live and what kind of car you own. My car is very low friction. I can just walk out my front door and drive my car wherever I want to go. Fuel, maintenance, and insurance are all pretty cheap.

By contrast renting is extremely high friction. Even if I reserve a specific type of vehicle in advance that doesn't guarantee that it will actually be available when I show up.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#678

Post by moistbar » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 3:05 PM UTC

TomSwirly wrote: post #261

moistbar wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoken like someone who's never driven in a city. City streets are narrow and extremely uncomfortable to drive on as it is.

Then _don't drive in the city._ Why is this so hard to understand? Unless you're a delivery vehicle, driving in a city is just antisocial.

You have to in the US. What part of that is so hard to understand? Our public transit is trash, so there's no other option for people who live outside the city and have to go there. If you want to fix something, fix that.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#679

Post by loco5niner » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 3:08 PM UTC

fvdessen wrote: post #307

Cycling is not only good for the environment, but for cities in general. During the last confinement, when car traffic completely stopped, I realised that cars are the single biggest reason why living in the city can be unpleasant. People may not realise it consciously, but when they move out of the city, what they are looking for is a place with not as much cars driving around. Cars destroy cities by making a viciou…

> People may not realise it consciously, but when they move out of the city, what they are looking for is a place with not as much cars driving around.

Nope, for me it's definitely getting away from the wrong sorts of people.

Re: Cycling is more important than electric cars for reaching net-zero cities

#680

Post by jamil7 » Thu, Apr 08, 2021, 3:13 PM UTC

temp8964 wrote: post #661

jamil7 wrote: post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couple of things from my anecdotal experience. Firstly, people already do this, yeah there are less cyclists in winter but the dedicated still ride. Secondly, nobody is advocating for bikes and nothing else, bike infrastructure in combination with a proper public transport system. Finally I see older people riding bikes regularly, often with a grandkid on the back or front and I'd guess they're in better shape for it…

You are not talking about biking as the choice for most people for every day use.

Why does everything have to be discussed in absolutes? It can be the default choice for most people most of the time and yet you've decided that it can't ever be because of a small set of scenarios in which you've decided it doesn't work. Like I said, not advocating for bikes and nothing else but the default choice for most people should not be owning and driving a car everywhere, electric or not.