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WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

arstechnica.com

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Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#671

Post by traceroute66 »

Aachen wrote: post #546
lrvick wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are going to move from one centralized, walled garden, privacy hostile platform that hard requires Google/Apple ecosystems to get signed updates... to another with identical drawbacks. I suggest something that lets you use any client/platform you want, uses the same crypto primitives, and lets you choose what server/country your data is hosted in and change your mind any time, e.g Matrix. How many times do cen…

Matrix is riddled with bugs. While I agree with you that signal isn't all that great (they do some really good stuff and then make some really weird trade-offs), I've recently compared Signal, Wire, Threema, Jami, Briar, Element/Matrix, and Keybase. The most mature app is Signal. It has the best usability to privacy trade-off. Threema is the better choice if you don't mind not having a usable desktop client. For me t…

>> I was involved in a paid audit of Wire so I know more about the encryption protocol than I do about the other clients

Seeing as you mentioned Threema in the same post, I think I ought to step in here.

The encryption protocol for Threema is open source, using standard algorithms, not something they invented.

You, like I did for $my_org, can write your own software to send messages to devices running Threema using the Threema API.

Message contents are, of course, encrypted before submission to the API. Threema provide a number of SDKs to help you, but you are under no obligation to use it, you can write your own API submission client from scratch.

P.S. Not saying Wire is bad here. Wire is good. I use it alongside Threema myself for $other_uses. But I'm saying don't write off Threema under a false understanding that their encryption protocols are closed source.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#672

Post by lrvick »

lrvick wrote: post #631
jmnicolas wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suggest something that lets you use any client/platform you want I lost about half of my contacts when migrating to Signal, do you really think I can make them install some random app that may or may not work? They already complain that Signal isn't as polished as Whatsapp.

Those that won't respect your ethics are not your friends. I lost many of my contacts moving to Matrix but earned a lot of new high value ones that share my worldview to continue building a decentralized censorship resistant internet.

I would also add that Matrix, unlike any of the other networks discussed, offers the ability to bridge to all other networks being discussed so if you so desire you can have your open network cake and communicate with people on walled garden networks too.

Not worth the trouble for me and I don't even want to have accounts in these platforms or let them collect my conversations, but the path at least exists.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#673

Post by eznzt »

rusk wrote: post #583
submeta wrote: post #467

I am in the EU, and this is what I have been presented with: „ By tapping Agree, you accept the new terms, which take effect on February 8, 2021. After this date, you’ll need to accept the new terms to continue using WhatsApp. You can also visit the Help Center if you would prefer to delete your account and would like more information. To learn more about how WhatsApp processes your data, read our updated privacy pol…

As I understand it even with click thru agreement like this it is still illegal in the EU. Could be an interesting case on the way... I believe that WhatsApp only real option in this case is to stop serving the EU, which I feel as an EU residents could only be a good thing!

It would be a good thing to lose a chat app that works very well and has E2E by default?

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#674

Post by BatteryMountain »

Facebook and by extension Whatsapp needs to be regulated.

Also, I'd be happy to pay for Whatsapp but then they need to isolate themselves from Facebook/third parties and slow down with the feature creep. It works great for what it is. If they mutate the thing further, it's going to become a gross/convuluted app that tries to cater to all use cases.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#675

Post by jcalve »

eznzt wrote: post #673
rusk wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it even with click thru agreement like this it is still illegal in the EU. Could be an interesting case on the way... I believe that WhatsApp only real option in this case is to stop serving the EU, which I feel as an EU residents could only be a good thing!

It would be a good thing to lose a chat app that works very well and has E2E by default?

Yes, it would force people to use better alternatives such as Signal or Telegram.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#676

Post by eznzt »

jcalve wrote: post #675
eznzt wrote: post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be a good thing to lose a chat app that works very well and has E2E by default?

Yes, it would force people to use better alternatives such as Signal or Telegram.

If you need to force people to use alternatives it's because they are not much better to begin with.

I've used the Signal app and it's a bug fest. Telegram is not even encrypted by default and there is no option for encrypted groups.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#677

Post by kar1181 »

It's harder for US folks to understand just how much of a monopoly WhatsApp has in Europe and the UK.

Pretty much all of our school and local community communication happens via WhatsApp. I'd change to Signal or Telegram in a heartbeat, but the inertia is so great it's not possible.

It pains me to say, but we're getting to the point where companies like Twitter, Facebook and Google need to be treated like utilities or something so that such moves as these can be scrutinised and controlled more effectively as Facebook could pretty much (within current law) introduce whatever policy they like and users would be faced with the option of accepting or being cut off from their local community.

Given the pandemic and the UK lockdown, this is not tolerable.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#678

Post by turkeywelder »

jcalve wrote: post #675
eznzt wrote: post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be a good thing to lose a chat app that works very well and has E2E by default?

Yes, it would force people to use better alternatives such as Signal or Telegram.

that'll never happen - WhatsApp is almost WeChat for Europe, it's ubiquitous and the network effect is so strong you'll really struggle to get masses of people to switch away fom it.

99% of people outside of the HN bubble will just look at the dialog, click OK and carry on as normal.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#679

Post by querez »

roel_v wrote: post #526
codemac wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Signal has improved a lot. I burnt a lot of the same thing, but it's finally sticking when I ask people to first install it within the last year or so.

"Signal has gotten better" is the new "Linux on the desktop". When I move to a new phone with Signal, is there already an (easy) mechanism to take along all my messages from my old phone? Last time I checked, there wasn't, and this is a core requirement, even if most people don't quite realize it when they start using Signal.

There is a mechanism that works very well and reliably. It involves manually copying an exported backup from the old phone to the new one, and entering a 16 digit (IIRC) passcode. Wheter you consider that easy or not depends on you. For me it was a 5 minute procedure

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#680

Post by MYEUHD »

lrvick wrote: post #588
chalst wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like Signal's stance on forks (which is that they are allowed but may not use the official Signal network) but it hardly has identical drawbacks. Signal is open source, can be downloaded as an official APK and can be run on LineageOS without Google Play (notifications do require some emulation of Play Services calls, but that can be provided using MicroG).

Moxie highly discourages using the APK because it means turning on untrusted sources which is highly unsafe and bypasses signature verification. It is one BGP attack or compromised CDN admin way from compromising the masses. This is one of the few points I agree with moxie on. The only safe way to install software on an Android device requires you bootstrap trust via a system supplied package manager that enforces si…

>and Moxie refuses to allow apps to be distributed there because he openly admits he wants the usage metrics that come from Google/Apple distribution.

So he admits he cares about usage metrics more than privacy. which makes trusting signal a bit hard

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