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Billionaires Build

paulgraham.com

671–680 of 957 posts

Re: Billionaires Build

#671
post #635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jeff Bezos does not exist in a vacuum. There is no world in which you reduce Bezos' net worth by that much without affecting the rest of the economy. I already mentioned a couple possible effects. I'm sure there are many others including ones that nobody will think of until after they happen. I also don't see how you talk about fair while proposing to enact a special tax to target one specific individual. That seems…

It's strange you won't answer the question. I haven't prescribed what would happen to the money, simply that the rich need to take a haircut to make things more even. If you also pursue a more robust, less concentrated economy more generally, you could certainly invest the money in entrepreneurship, small farms, improved IT infrastructure, etc., etc. That would do more good for the economy than letting Jeff launch it…

[deleted]

Re: Billionaires Build

#672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your explanation I see the feedback loop that makes it easier for you and your children to stay out of poverty if you're already successful. I don't see a feedback loop that makes it hard to escape poverty. Why did the high school dropouts drop out in the first place, and why does that make their kid more likely to drop out? Ideally their kid should still have access to public school education, with all the tools…

> I don't see a feedback loop that makes it hard to escape poverty Really? You’re 16 years old, you’ve a high IQ and a passion for programming. Your parents are alcoholics. You don’t have nice clothes. You don’t have perfect manners because it’s just not the world you live in. How do you get to the university admissions interview in the next town? How will you compete against the mannerly, well turned out student wit…

These days, you can start a successful internet business in your basement with just a computer. Nobody has to see you, your clothes, or your bad manners. You don't need a university education, though you can get one for free online as needed.

Re: Billionaires Build

#673
post #235

This essay uses a weak straw-man: the only way to become a billionaire is by exploiting people I think the "principle of charity" or "steel-man" criticism of billionaires isn't that every single billionaire is directly exploiting people. It would be closer to something like this: The problem is that our society has feedback loops that make it hard to escape poverty, and feedback loops that let the wealthy amass more…

"Behind every great fortune there is crime" --Balzac (b. 1799) e.g. https://www.quora.com/Which-caste-is-looting-India/answers/2...

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility != https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility

Re: Billionaires Build

#674
post #235

This essay uses a weak straw-man: the only way to become a billionaire is by exploiting people I think the "principle of charity" or "steel-man" criticism of billionaires isn't that every single billionaire is directly exploiting people. It would be closer to something like this: The problem is that our society has feedback loops that make it hard to escape poverty, and feedback loops that let the wealthy amass more…

You are right about the feedback loops that make it hard to escape poverty. The most uncomfortable one to talk about is basic social network effects. Two people meet at some prestigious college and get married - are we shocked they have children who are predisposed for success? Besides from having god-given IQ, they are likely some combination of ambitious, punctual, respectful of authority, long-term oriented, hard-…

Reminds me https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Maxwell_Gates

Re: Billionaires Build

#675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be a more correct view. In much debate and discussion I see "market value" substituted for "value". Often the implication is a vague one, as withmuch equivocation. pg's argumentventures there. Keep in mind that Smith, Ricardo, and Marx each commit this error, including in the Smith passage I quoted. So do the Marginalists, or at leaast most of them. Mariana Mazzucato may be an exception. (I've just discove…

Separating value and price is 101 of marginal economics. There couldn't be consumer surplus without it. I don't know how you could be marginalist and believe market price = value for user.

In theory. In practice just about every quantitative method or metric used to measure social welfare or individual well being falls back on price. And since our culture has a fetish for positivism and anything that looks like “math” those are the fixed assumptions that guide our decision making.

Re: Billionaires Build

#677
Every single day that goes by, a billionaire does absolutely nothing with his extra billions. No looks shedding of 1-2 billions dollars. Instead there is a measly donation of 100000k here or there.

Billionaires are keeping the society this way.

Re: Billionaires Build

#678
post #666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's strange you won't answer the question. I haven't prescribed what would happen to the money, simply that the rich need to take a haircut to make things more even. If you also pursue a more robust, less concentrated economy more generally, you could certainly invest the money in entrepreneurship, small farms, improved IT infrastructure, etc., etc. That would do more good for the economy than letting Jeff launch it…

> I haven't prescribed what would happen to the money, simply that the rich need to take a haircut to make things more even Ah, we've reached the crux of the problem. You are not concerned with making things good only with making them even . This is just crab mentality[1]. Someone else has more than you, so you need to pull them down. Or perhaps you've conflated the two and think that if things are even, they will ne…

> Ah, we've reached the crux of the problem. You are not concerned with making things good only with making them even. This is just crab mentality[1]. Someone else has more than you, so you need to pull them down. Or perhaps you've conflated the two and think that if things are even, they will necessarily be good, or at least better than they are when they're uneven. Let me assure you, it is entirely possible for things to become more even and also have everyone be worse off than they were before.

That's another assumption, I'm concerned about both. You still haven't answered the question of what is going to be harmed by reducing the wealth of every billionaire by 73%. I see you have concerns about government ineptly wasting the money, but even if they did, it's not clear how that would be materially worse for the average American. The worst way the government could spend that money would be to hand it back to the billionaires, which would put us back in the current situation. I'm open to an alternative, but I don't want assurances. I want historical examples, preferably ones that occur in the United States. Raising the specter of Communism is useless demagoguery, since there is no serious constituency for it.

> Sure, we can invest in those things. We can also pursue policies (like antitrust enforcement) that would naturally result in less inequality without distorting the market by confiscating and destroying wealth when it reaches some arbitrary number.

War anti-trust enforcement! You have to do both though. You don't have to destroy wealth, you can also redistribute it in various ways. Even George W. Bush was a fan of the ole' stimulus check. I also hear the people would really like a public healthcare option - investing in that might spur some economic growth.

> It's true the New Deal happened and then a strong middle class emerged some years later, that doesn't mean one caused the other. There was a little thing called World War II as well, and the rest of the productive capacity of the industrial world being destroyed with only America left may have contributed to the abundance of high-paying manufacturing jobs, just a little.

Well, we tried doing it the way the laissez-faire way after Europe destroyed it's labor capacity in WW1, and it resulted in the Great Depression. We tried the New Deal, fought a Europe-destroying war, followed by more Keynesian policy, and it resulted in prosperity (including the areas rebuilt under the Marshall Plan). I'm just some guy, but I'm going to go with my gut and say we should do the thing that worked, over the economic ideology that has failed the average American every time it has been trotted out.

> Yeah, there's a historical precedent for burning witches at the stake too, that doesn't mean it's a good thing.

Now you are just being hysterical. Forcing Jeff Bezos to live on a mere $50,000,000,000 is hardly burning him at the stake.

Re: Billionaires Build

#679
post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a sheltered view of poverty. When you live in poverty, there is no such thing as peace or thinking about the future. You are trying to cope minute-by-minute with hunger, abuse, fear, and limitless insecurity. You know someone who is in jail, someone who has been shot/stabbed/murdered, and plenty of people who did all the right things and still failed to make it out. In a nutshell, there's no such thin…

I hate to write the following sentence, but you don’t know me and the experiences I’ve had throughout my life. The stabbed, jail, etc... you mentioned... yeah, I’ve seen that first hand a few times, know many people who have gone to jail and are still in it for a myriad of reasons. Seeing & having that stuff around you doesn’t mean you grow poor. I did the 6 year community college plan; I failed out of college and by…

Sounds like someone was bankrolling you through this period of failure?

And from you're own admission you "had to scrounge for change" a few times... I know people who nearly starved to death as little children. In fact there are starving, begging kids out on the streets all over the city I live in.

It doesn't sound like you have any familiarity with the type of extreme poverty that hundreds of millions of people on Earth live through, for whom it is clearly not a choice.

Re: Billionaires Build

#680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Paul is fundamentally not understanding the argument behind “billionaires exploit workers.” It isn’t that billionaires are fundamentally bad people or that they’ve accumulated their wealth through misdeeds. But what it is is that it’s basically impossible to accumulate that amount of wealth through work. Instead, you have to be able to capture the difference between the value of someone else’s work and what y…

You left out a key part in this simplified formula - you pay $X and make $Y from the work, and you do this for N people. If you leave X and Y the same and scale N down to like 50 or 100 employees, you have a good old hard working American business that's creating solid working class jobs. When you scale N up to an almost inconceivably large number (Amazon has over a million employees) you get an owner with an inconce…

> The problem with just taxing it all away to prevent him from being a billionaire is the money is tied to control of the company, so it's equivalent to saying nobody can build a business bigger than some arbitrary limit.

Limits are hardly arbitrary. If you control a large enough chunk of economic output that your decisions have distortionary effects on other markets and people it’s not an “arbitrary” standard that this should be disallowed. I assume everyone on HN would be pretty pro something like net neutrality to constrain gatekeepers from carving a slice out of all business done on the internet for themselves on these grounds. But, for some reason, people seem to have trouble connecting how the same logic applies to distortionary control over the media or something like urban transit.

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