India bans TikTok, WeChat, and dozens of other Chinese apps • Hacker News Board

Re: India bans TikTok, WeChat, and dozens of other Chinese apps

#671

Post by hnal943 » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:39 AM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #88

saltedonion wrote: post #42

India is absolutely right in banning TikTok as it is a significant national securities threat. As long as the platforms recommendation and ranking algos are a black box, there is no guarantee that China isn’t conducting misinformation campaigns via the platform. At the very least, the government should audit the algos and make sure China can’t arbitrarily alter ranking results.

Covid-19 is biting extremely hard in India. Handling has been very poor so far. Stroking nationalism and pointing at foreign enemies in hard times is a tried and tested tactic.

Covid-19 originated in China and is a global pandemic due to the CCP's negligence.

Re: India bans TikTok, WeChat, and dozens of other Chinese apps

#672

Post by SllX » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:46 AM UTC

liquidise wrote: post #654

shaftoe wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that restrictions in human liberty are subject to when "a national community agrees on something" is laughable at best and evil at worst.

But who draws the "human liberty" line? Where and how does "human liberty" and "individual liberty" intersect? Is the Non Aggression Principle the doctrine on this? Or something more progressive that helps ensure minority rights? Some other option entirely? Liberty and humanism are topics built on millennia of context and nuance. Blanket statements like yours, while passionate, risk being so reductionist that they di…

The idea of someone drawing lines is positivist bullshit. The Declaration of Independence was grounded on the bedrock of Natural law, and the bedrock of the Constitution was the common law. The context for both was American but the principles therein are Universal.

Liberty is the natural order, but liberties can be tempered by morals and laws. If they existed not in nature, but as a set of approved rights granted to you by secular authorities, then your liberty is not your liberty, but your license.

Re: India bans TikTok, WeChat, and dozens of other Chinese apps

#673

Post by justplugitin » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:50 AM UTC

decon2 wrote: post #170

baybal2 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This aside, the societal dynamics at large are remarkably, surprisingly similar.

Spontaneous protests around Floyd's killing are different from the anti CAA protestors. All the protest leaders (students) are in jail and accused of terrorism. Dissent is suppressed. How can the two societies be similar?

A prominent anti-CAA protestor called for cutting off the secluded eastern part of the country. He is still lauded by the fellow protestors. Petrol bombs were used by protestors. This was no ordinary protest.

Re: India bans TikTok, WeChat, and dozens of other Chinese apps

#674

Post by airstrike » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:52 AM UTC

xwolfi wrote: post #615

SllX wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nation states have military, intelligence, diplomacy and police corps. They reserve the power to stop, detain, arrest, jail, try, sentence, imprison, and kill. That’s why how we go about those things is a Big Deal, and why we have so many rules about who can go about it, how, under what circumstances, what the laws are that they’re enforcing, what the processes and procedures are for enforcement and how guilt is dete…

I think you forget a detail. Nation state, or any state, are sovereign. If the national community agrees on something, it's all that matter. We don't have to abide by other countries standards on everything especially if we dont like it. Im thinking as a French I had to fight a lot with free speech absolutists abroad, while at home we're quite okay with selective censorship... it sounds scary to an American sometimes…

> Im thinking as a French I had to fight a lot with free speech absolutists abroad, while at home we're quite okay with selective censorship... it sounds scary to an American sometimes, but hell we dont care :D

I'm not surprised you're being downvoted as I've tried to make this point with American friends before and gotten the same reaction 10/10 times.

To use a very topical example: in other jurisdictions outside of the US, racism is a crime, and speaking out in favor of it or discriminating against someone verbally is not protected by free speech.

In fact, jurisdictions outside of the US often do not even have a definition for the "right to free speech" – it's obvious that you can say whatever you want.

It just so happens that by saying some of those things you may be doing something illegal, not unlike how threatening someone isn't a protected action in the US. So it's not so much a matter of censorship, but one of limits to rights. Every right has certain limitations, and free speech isn't absolute, be it in America or elsewhere.

Re: India bans TikTok, WeChat, and dozens of other Chinese apps

#675

Post by KKKKkkkk1 » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:54 AM UTC

saltedonion wrote: post #42

India is absolutely right in banning TikTok as it is a significant national securities threat. As long as the platforms recommendation and ranking algos are a black box, there is no guarantee that China isn’t conducting misinformation campaigns via the platform. At the very least, the government should audit the algos and make sure China can’t arbitrarily alter ranking results.

Honestly, I don't see the difference between TikTok and other social media apps and the old media. Why not ban Hollywood, the Beatles, and McDonald's then? Aren't they a source of pernicious American influence on this generation's youth?

Re: India bans TikTok, WeChat, and dozens of other Chinese apps

#676

Post by airstrike » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:55 AM UTC

shaftoe wrote: post #650

xwolfi wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you forget a detail. Nation state, or any state, are sovereign. If the national community agrees on something, it's all that matter. We don't have to abide by other countries standards on everything especially if we dont like it. Im thinking as a French I had to fight a lot with free speech absolutists abroad, while at home we're quite okay with selective censorship... it sounds scary to an American sometimes…

The idea that restrictions in human liberty are subject to when "a national community agrees on something" is laughable at best and evil at worst.

> laughable at best and evil at worst.

Forgive me for not just taking your word for it. Citation needed.

Even your freedom of speech is subject to certain restrictions in the US – you can't make violent verbal threats to people, to name one example.

The problem with Law is that laymen opinions seem to matter even less than in other domains.

Re: India bans TikTok, WeChat, and dozens of other Chinese apps

#677

Post by ta17711771 » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:56 AM UTC

KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #675

saltedonion wrote: post #42

India is absolutely right in banning TikTok as it is a significant national securities threat. As long as the platforms recommendation and ranking algos are a black box, there is no guarantee that China isn’t conducting misinformation campaigns via the platform. At the very least, the government should audit the algos and make sure China can’t arbitrarily alter ranking results.

Honestly, I don't see the difference between TikTok and other social media apps and the old media. Why not ban Hollywood, the Beatles, and McDonald's then? Aren't they a source of pernicious American influence on this generation's youth?

Yes.

Re: India bans TikTok, WeChat, and dozens of other Chinese apps

#678

Post by rodw » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:58 AM UTC

ianleeclark wrote: post #161

saltedonion wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a good point. But TikTok is much more risky, and as as such requires much more scrutiny given existing body of knowledge between how chinese social media / chat companies such as WeChat enforce government censorship and aid in propagating misinformation. This might be a shock to most people in the western world, but if you go on almost ANY news website in china, the headline news is dedicated to government p…

> The reality is that Chinese firms and government operates together intimately No, I get this, but here's the thing: YouTube and, more specifically, it's advertisers do everything that you're accusing China of. There are material consequences if YouTube doesn't keep in line. What this means is that a status quo that pleases advertisers will be maintained. It's every bit propaganda as dropping leaflets, but you can't…

You're not wrong - and I'm extremely distrustful of the "ends" that commercial interests optimize for - but to be honest I feel like the commercial interests are at least more transparent.

Unless or until they approach the scale of a nation-state (and to be fair, many do) it seems like commercial interests are at the very least clear (and arguably market-driven and subject to competition).

For a specific if arbitrary example: I don't think Facebook values privacy (or YouTube free speech) but that's a side effect of their primary objective. Maybe it's a distinction without a difference, but it sure feels more sinister when the app is purpose built for privacy-invasion or opinion-manipulation.

Re: India bans TikTok, WeChat, and dozens of other Chinese apps

#679

Post by dragonsh » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:59 AM UTC

frequentnapper wrote: post #667

dragonsh wrote: post #636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@xwolfi Agree with you as long as majority of national community agree, it is ok. This is how democracy works the minority are suppressed one or the other way and things go the way majority wants. Indeed even on HN if a comment is down-voted it's greyed out so that people cannot read those minority views (obviously if its a hate speech can be flagged, which is already done, but then its thin line and needs tremendous…

India allows internet/app companies from other countries. It's just banning chinese apps because it is now in conflict with China.

Same as authoritarian states, e.g. Microsoft Bing and related social network linkedin works in China. Besides Europe and USA, China is one of the largest market for US and European technology companies.

Given the amount of censorship in India, treatment of its minority and arresting protestors without due trial for innocuous Facebook and twitter posts, because some politician or ruling administrations is hurt is not something one needs to be proud of.

As I said it's a slippery slope once the power is given to regime it's hard to get back.

Also just for information India's ranking on Internet Freedom for reference. [1]

[1] https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/freedom-in-the-world-...

Re: India bans TikTok, WeChat, and dozens of other Chinese apps

#680

Post by shihab » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 2:59 AM UTC

krn wrote: post #360

A reddit user, who claims to have reverse-engineered the TikTok app[1], concluded: > TikTok is a data collection service that is thinly-veiled as a social network. If there is an API to get information on you, your contacts, or your device... well, they're using it. > For what it's worth I've reversed the Instagram, Facebook, Reddit, and Twitter apps. They don't collect anywhere near the same amount of data that TikT…

About that reddit comment, when pressed for evidence, turns out that guy's own research is conveniently "lost" because of a motherboard failure. And someone in the comment pointed out that most of the things he found suspicious about tiktok is actually regularly employed by apps like fb, twitter etc.

I'm not taking sides and I don't have the technical expertise to judge everything said there. It's just that I'd be much more comfortable if all of those "evidences" came from a more trusted source & not a reddit comment from god-knows-who.

Honestly, as someone who doesn't belong to China/USA/India and genuinely curious about this, I'm tired of seeing all this "but but communist evil" and not much in the way of actual evidence.