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Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

nytimes.com

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Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#671

Post by Consultant32452 »

zamalek wrote: post #316
dkersten wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theres a fine line between “being allowed to throw a loud ranting racist out of a pub” because the pub is your business and you should be allowed to choose who to do business with and you don’t like racists... and throwing out a person of a different race because it’s your business and you should be allowed to choose who to do business with and don’t like that race... That is, we want businesses to have the right to…

> who to do business with and don’t like that race... Although not the historical reason, a far simpler one is: you can change your mind and ideas but can't change your race. In addition, it is that behavior and not that belief that gets the racist removed from the premises. You can choose to be quiet about your ideas where they are not welcome, but you can't choose to not be your race where it is not welcome.

In the specific case in question the naughty language occurred off platform. So the "racist" in this analogy did keep their mouth quiet in your pub. But you still kicked them out.

Did you know that the incident in question is about this Sargon fellow attacking white nationalists? So to further kill the analogy, you kicked a fellow out of your pub for saying mean things things against racism while at another pub.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#672

Post by PavlovsCat »

krapp wrote: post #442
beokop wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism is pretty common across the world. Sure, we could just decide to not talk to anyone that posts racist thoughts, but would the world really be better off?

>Sure, we could just decide to not talk to anyone that posts racist thoughts, but would the world really be better off? ... yes? I can't imagine the world would be better off by engaging even more with racists.

So in your mind, there's a "world", and then there's racists it can chose to "engage with" or not? You don't consider racists as part of the world? How many of the 7 billion people on this planet are racist in some way, do you think? And when "the world" stops "engaging with them", do you think they will just magically vanish or something?

The internet is regressing by the month now. We're not at the level of little kids covering their eyes, thinking that makes them invisible, and makes the world disappear.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#673

Post by PavlovsCat »

stevebmark wrote: post #350

I applaud Patreon's principled and value based stance. Hate speech is a difficult thing to address, and building social pressure against it is one of the few valuable tools we have.

Calling everything that gets banned hate speech by definition is like murdering young male adults with drones and calling them enemy combatants solely for being young male adults.

There are no values and no principles to be found in that whatsoever.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#675

Post by tomp »

StavrosK wrote: post #144
tomp wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it would be ok if he were black, right? After all, black people are free to use the n-word at will...

No, it's still shitty towards blacks if a black person says it, but I'm not going to get offended on their behalf in that case.

But you're happy to be offended on behalf of black people when a white person says it? That makes no sense...

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#676

Post by tomp »

danso wrote: post #135
tomp wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it would be ok if he were black, right? After all, black people are free to use the n-word at will...

You believe it’s an unfair privilege that they have?

No, it's unprincipled.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#677

Post by dang »

Lkjhmnbv wrote: post #146
zimpenfish wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a functional democracy requires tolerance of unpopular opinions not just by the government but also by society at large If you insert "some" before "unpopular", I'm with you. If you require "all" before "unpopular", then no, I disagree - e.g. people who believe "LGBTQ people should be done away" with, well, that's an "unpopular opinion" that should not be tolerated and, in fact, should be made anathema for anyone t…

So we should do away with them? Your comment is illogical.

This comment breaks several of the site guidelines. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and post civilly and substantively, or not at all.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#678

Post by PavlovsCat »

ellard wrote: post #13
pavel_lishin wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised that it only takes 17 of them to moderate. That seems like a very low number, given how big Patreon has gotten.

They probably have a system in place that automatically flags pages that look suspicious until a human approves of them.

No they don't, it's all based on user reports.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv7hvZee-PQ

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#679

Post by iguy »

munchbunny wrote: post #505
iguy wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, I didn't know that about the DS/Cloudflare case, what a dumb move. Still think the right move for the CEO would have been to rise above it.

If I were in the CEO's shoes, I would dump DS over it too. We generally expect provider/customer relationships to be in good faith, and the generally expect free speech to happen in good faith, aka "I'm not relying on dirty tricks to persuade people." DS dropped their end, so I would feel no obligation to hold up my end. I would oppose banning what they are saying in general, but I think it's entirely reasonable to n…

Yea it's not wrong to dump them. But it does I think create a bit of a precedent that you should care at all. I'd worry, as CEO, that pretty soon you'll find yourself having to hire a team of people to manage content complaints... The alternative would have been to position your company more like infrastructure. Unlike Patreon, it's not a service which needs millions to think well of it, so it's not very exposed to the outraged mob.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#680

Post by PavlovsCat »

Jare wrote: post #299

"[...] all contentious speech or behavior will put the speaker or actor at risk of serious financial and social sanctions, and strip them of all defense,” Thing is, a lot of self-described "contentious" speech is putting other people at risk of serious financial, social, mental and physical harm. I believe in free speech and I believe that you can't successfully fight ideas by burying them, but I am also aware that I…

So, without knowing anything about the actual details, you have no doubt in your mind.

And the livelihood of others is just to roll over, because you can't be bothered to actually look into it, before weighing in either way. So, what do you think you are practicing, here? If one were to look into history, with what would they find parallels, you think?

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