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We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

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Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#671

Post by tony101 »

bun_at_work wrote: post #286
GeneralMayhem wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Censorship in the EU is generally intended to protect individuals; censorship in China is meant to protect the ones doing the censoring. The EU has democratically elected governments; China is an authoritarian dictatorship. Those are differences in kind, not just degree.

You do see what you're saying right? Essentially, you're saying the government is responsible for the laws regarding censorship, not the businesses that operate there. If censorship existed in the USA, Google would have still started under it, and simply operated with that constraint. This is no different than operating in China. Google can't influence one way or another what censorship laws exist in China, currently…

Laws passed by duly elected representatives (whether in the US, EU, or elsewhere) may not be perfect, but they certainly have more legitimacy than "laws" promulgated by an authoritarian regime that sends political and religious dissidents to "reeducation" camps.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#672

Post by scarface74 »

dymk wrote: post #655
scarface74 wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not saying they should leave or stay. But, protestors in the 60s were willing to get kicked, beaten, arrested, etc for their moral beliefs. They were willing to make real sacrifices. On the other hand, Google employees had the “courage” to sign a letter.

What protesters were willing to do in the 60s or in 2018 is orthogonal to ensuring that Google maintains a workforce of "moral" people. Suggestions that those who think that Google is going down a dark path should leave will just result in moral evaporative cooling, which leaves everybody off worse.

That sounds like the same excuse that companies and the government used in the 80s when people were trying to get the government to impose sanctions on South Africa over apartheid.

Signing a piece of paper knowing that it is of no personal risk to you is virtue signaling.

Why should that get a company to change? What will be the consequences if they go ahead with thier plan? A more harshly written letter?

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#674

Post by penagwin »

omnimus wrote: post #579
electrograv wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case, I'm definitely convinced to your side of the argument! If a civilian can buy it, I see no reason why a police force shouldn't be able to as well. That said, I'd love to hear any counter-arguments to this notion, if they exist.

Well in USA civilians can buy automatic rifles and high caliber armor piercing sniper rifles... that does not necessary mean that its a good idea.

Nitpick: you can buy automatic rifles made before 1986 (might be off on the date but you get the idea). You can't go buy a brand new automatic.

* you can however buy a modern rifle that's made to have its automatic mode disabled, but my understanding is that it's trivial to modify to become automatic (but it will no longer be legal)

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#675

Post by kirvyteo »

advisedwang wrote: post #632
kirvyteo wrote: post #628

Has anyone thought about the effects of NOT having google search product and services in China? I read a lot of negativity about how it is ruining the culture and personal beliefs about freedom. Has anyone balanced it with what is the upside to users (not money for Google)?

IMHO there isn't much effect of Google not being in China. Baidu works for Chinese uses. I've seen an argument that Google would be a better, freer experience, but Dragonfly shows that wouldn't really be the case.

If we can take "freer" out of the argument for a minute.. (because not everyone in the world places personal freedom on the same level of importance)

Better search results? Better quality of information for Chinese researchers and developers? Better road information? Or email? Cloud services?

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#676

Post by paulddraper »

bhartzer wrote: post #673

This from employees of the company that argued (successfully) in a United States court that no one has a reasonable expectation of privacy when connecting to any Google service. Sorry, Googlers, you need to get your priorities straight.

Which Googlers are you talking to...the ones that wrote the blog post?

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#677

Post by 51lver »

all2 wrote: post #664
omnimus wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well in USA civilians can buy automatic rifles and high caliber armor piercing sniper rifles... that does not necessary mean that its a good idea.

It is an excellent idea. An armed populous is an excellent deterrent of tyranny. And with the way the US is headed, an armed populous may be the only thing that stands between freedom and absolute tyranny.

Upvoting for historical reasons.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#678

Post by delroth »

bduerst wrote: post #614
ipsa wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can solve this "if against Z, then what about X"? Think of the user. Does a user benefit from being able to clear a permanent record, long after punishment has been served? Does a user benefit if Google facilitates government spying? You can be for the right to be forgotten (and admit to its abuses by politicians and rich hucksters), and against government censorship. This distinction is powerful and therefor oft…

>Does a user benefit if Google facilitates government spying? This is irrelevant because Dragonfly is about bringing search to China, not handing over access to user data to the government. The Chinese firewall blocks 18k websites. The Right to be Forgotten is censoring way more information than China's firewall because it is allowing government officials to specifically target and censor all information about themse…

This is very relevant: https://theintercept.com/2018/09/21/google-suppresses-memo-r...

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#679

Post by diminoten »

bduerst wrote: post #557
Puer wrote: post #38

I considered working at Google last year after a recruiter reached out to me, but their decision to backtrack on their promise in China changed my mind. I do not morally condemn anyone who works at Google. I have many good friends that are both bright engineers and undeniably good people that work there. I just feel that as someone who's family is Taiwanese, I cannot in good consciousness support the company. I let t…

Would you still work for Amazon? Microsoft? Apple? Facebook? Because they are actually in China and give concessions to the government.

I don't think it's fair to try and nitpick people's ethical decisions like this.

Imagine yes, this person would work for Amazon even though they're in China too. Does that make them not working for Google because they're in China a bad choice? I don't think so.

Are we really prepared to tear everyone down who isn't absolute in their morality?

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#680

Post by bduerst »

diminoten wrote: post #679
bduerst wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you still work for Amazon? Microsoft? Apple? Facebook? Because they are actually in China and give concessions to the government.

I don't think it's fair to try and nitpick people's ethical decisions like this. Imagine yes, this person would work for Amazon even though they're in China too. Does that make them not working for Google because they're in China a bad choice? I don't think so. Are we really prepared to tear everyone down who isn't absolute in their morality?

A moral inconsistency is not a nitpick when it's the entire industry.

Their logic makes Google a better employer than Amazon, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook and any other tech company currently operating in China. Saying they spurned Google because the company was considering going to China is disengenious, since the majority of the substitute employers are already in China.

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