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Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

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671–680 of 1001 posts

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#671
For those making the "public company it's their right" argument, it's worth considering what that logic might imply.

Does it mean food stores could deny selling you food, based on your associations/affiliations? Airlines deny you travel? Cell phone companies, deny you a phone?

I think the reason we're seeing backlash here is that the internet is largely perceived as a utility now (I believe utility companies cannot deny service at will).

Secondly, more than once is US history have those attempting to be virtuous gone too far (e.g. McCarthyism). Surely it will happen again. When that day comes, will it be better if we err to the side of too dismissive or too open-minded?

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The act was passed in part in reaction to the 1995 decision in Stratton Oakmont, Inc. v. Prodigy Services Co.,[3] which suggested that service providers who assumed an editorial role with regard to customer content, thus became publishers, and legally responsible for libel and other torts committed by customers. This act was passed to specifically enhance service providers' ability to delete or otherwise monitor con…

Good reference, another thing to go on my Not-A-Lawyer reading list. However, this doesn't seem to indicate that such editorial activity can't have a legal effect in some areas. It is limited only to cases where the service provider would otherwise be implicated as the publisher/speaker instead of a neutral mechanism used in the delivery of others' publications and speech. There are many other relevant circumstances…

> How hard would it have been to say "Sorry, that's not how DNS works" when some random person on Twitter said "You're supporting a white supremacist! Undo it!"?

I don't understand? Are you saying that lying would have been morally superior? Because, as we've just seen, that's exactly how DNS works.

As for the other legal consequences, I don't see how this changes anything. Did anybody ever doubt Cloudflare's technical ability to stop serving individual sites?

I also don't see how consistency can be an argument in any such case: Being consistently wrong doesn't seem like a strong excuse for being wrong.

I feel you're also operating from a view of the court system that is vastly more cynical than the courts deserve. This is, unfortunately, a point that I cannot adequately put into words. But if you ever have the time, maybe find some decision that interests you (or, actually, pick anything at random) and read the decision, or maybe watch the oral arguments. I often read both the majority and the dissenting opinion of cases, and come away agreeing with both of them! That should be impossible because they contradict each other, but even opinions I disagree with often have an undeniably forceful argument.

(I just thought of a good example, which is a transcript from the Waymo vs Uber lawsuit. You may be surprised to see the forceful stand the judge takes to make the proceedings open to the general public. Quote:

    if you want all this stuff to be so secret, 
    you should be in arbitration. You shouldn't be 
    trying to do this in court and constantly [insisting
    on closed procedures]. 

    The public has a right to see what we do. 
    And I feel that so strongly. I am not -- 
    the U.S. District Court is not a wholly owned 
    subsidiary of Quinn Emanuel or Morrison & Foerster 
    or these two big companies. We belong to the public.
  
(https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3533784-Waymo-Uber-3...)

With regard to your expectation of HN's opinion: I believe you're mostly just underestimating how dramatic many people consider the current political situation to be. This is somewhat beyond the usual partisan divide, as can be seen by the almost unanimous decision by CEOs (generally not suspected to secretly harbour leftwing believes) to quit their advisory roles, by the increasing willingness of republicans in congress to criticise their president, or even in the Fox News moderator's spontaneous reaction to Trump's press conference, calling it "disgusting" and "surreal".

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#673
post #573

We take down Al Qaeda terrorist websites all the time because they can be used to radicalize people. Nazis are no different. They are calling for the systematic violent overthrow of the US government and for the extermination of many millions of so called undesirables. This is a terrorist threat. I take this threat very seriously as do many people in the Jewish, Hispanic, and African American community. There are lit…

The last sentence is the main reason why the world is so fucked up today. "Unless you agree with my radical leftist agenda you are a nazi/racist/ "-mentality and the complete unreasonability of the left is the reason why normal people are fed up with all this crap and are voting for Trump, Brexit etc. No matter how evil some group is (may they be pedophiles, satan worshippers, nazis, whatever...) silencing them and a…

Would you say the same about a takedown of an ISIS website?

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#674
post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you think that businesses shouldn't be allowed to discriminate against skateboarders, or people who refuse to wear shirts and shoes? I don't believe that businesses should be allowed to discriminate against anyone who is behaving in a lawful manner. Is that belief what you're calling a "weird personal ideology"? > Do you have an similar argument for why Nazis shouldn't be fired, or why we shouldn't consider whet…

> why should someone's beliefs be a factor in whether I do business with them? If I'm buying something from someone why would anything other than price and quality of the product or service even come up? Okay, let's make an example. Let's make a really blatant one. Imagine you're Jewish. Furthermore, imagine there are two bakeries in town: Bob's Bakery, and Pastry 88. All of the people working at both of them are per…

Let's make it even more complicated. Bob believes absolutely everything Al does, in fact his views are somehow even worse than Al's, but because he's not allowed to express his opinion nobody knows what he really thinks and he can only plan his genocide in secret.

Is it okay for me to buy donuts from him then?

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#675
post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

^^^ The parent comment hits the ball out of the park. The commentary on past posts on HN and elsewhere floors me. It seems one or two things are prevalent: 1. Folks will gladly loan the hangman the rope that he will use to hang you, your family, and your neighbors — all because of "purity of belief" in free speech. Sorry, hate to break it to you, but these illiberal forces are a clear and present danger to this comfo…

> As someone who cherishes the rule of law over the rule of man, not aiding and these illiberal parties is the minimum. That's good. But the rule of law should apply over "not aiding" those people. In the private sector, there have been a number of cases where companies (a) don't apply their ToS to people they agree with, and (b) over-apply their ToS to people they disagree with. See Vidcon && Sargon for the most rec…

Safe spaces and diversity are diametrical to due process and tolerance. You're assumed guilty and treated as lesser if "privileged", which means white, male or both.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#676
post #573

We take down Al Qaeda terrorist websites all the time because they can be used to radicalize people. Nazis are no different. They are calling for the systematic violent overthrow of the US government and for the extermination of many millions of so called undesirables. This is a terrorist threat. I take this threat very seriously as do many people in the Jewish, Hispanic, and African American community. There are lit…

The last sentence is the main reason why the world is so fucked up today. "Unless you agree with my radical leftist agenda you are a nazi/racist/ "-mentality and the complete unreasonability of the left is the reason why normal people are fed up with all this crap and are voting for Trump, Brexit etc. No matter how evil some group is (may they be pedophiles, satan worshippers, nazis, whatever...) silencing them and a…

The right to your own ideas is not an absolute. It's a pact you have to respect and it involves respecting other people rights first. Neonazi and white supremacist are betraying this social pact by furthering the idea of a superior race and the extermination of the different, that's why they're walking a really thin line when it comes to their right to First Amendment protection.

You just resorted to what I call "the bad child argument". The bad rich child who already has everything wants an icecream. Mom, for once, says no. The child throws a fit and blames mom for it: if you gave me the ice cream I wouldn't have thrown a fit.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#677
post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So much for believing in "due process".

> So much for believing in "due process". Due process is not a synonym for don't do anything nor no consequences .

Due process is not a synonym for "I woke up this morning in a bad mood and decided to kick them off the Internet" either.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#678
post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He is also effectively saying that since he can and will remove sites he personally doesn't like, that he personally approves of every other site using Cloudflare A -> B does not imply !B -> !A Example: if you eat an Apple, saying "hey, that's one good-looking Apple!", it does not require you to heretofore eat every good-looking Apple you come across.

> A -> B does not imply !B -> !A A -> B does imply !B -> !A. The error in reasoning here seems to be that attitude towards a website is assumed to be a binary "like/not like" variable, while in reality one can also neither like nor dislike something.

No it doesn't. Just because you tell me you don't like to get shot doesn't mean you are ok with being stabbed.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last sentence is the main reason why the world is so fucked up today. "Unless you agree with my radical leftist agenda you are a nazi/racist/ "-mentality and the complete unreasonability of the left is the reason why normal people are fed up with all this crap and are voting for Trump, Brexit etc. No matter how evil some group is (may they be pedophiles, satan worshippers, nazis, whatever...) silencing them and a…

Anarchists and communists have long been banned from entering the US. And I've noticed a strong push back against most of the more mild socialists ideas. The US have not been "the land of the free" for a long time. And I will argue that communism is fundamentally a good ideology. While fascism has never leaned on the good side of human nature. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Control_Act_of_1954 https://en.wik…

The US dropped its blanket ban on anarchists and communists well over 20 years ago. I personally know people in both camps who have visited the UK and one who has permanent US residency.

I'd argue that while the US has many problems when it comes to its treatment of the left, things have moved in the opposite direction of what you indicate. E.g. the far rights attack on Obama coupled with generations now growing up who never experienced the cold war combined to make words like "socialism" far less scary.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#680
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so bizarre. He tries to have it both ways. He says "no one should have that power", but then says he did it literally earlier that day. He says CloudFlare isn't changing their "content-neutral" policy... but clearly they did change that policy. I have many reasons to oppose nazis, including incredibly personal ones. That said, I think crossing this content line for an infrastructure company is a big deal, and I…

Gee, I hope my site doesn't happen to anger him in some way.

Then 1. Don't be a nazi 2. Don't have Google and GoDaddy boot you off their services already leaving you looking like you support nazis. But mainly just 1.
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