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A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

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Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#671
post #92

The Fed engineers a slow inflation every year via interest rate control and gives the benefit of the newly created money to banks, the loan borrowers, and asset holders as rates lower than keeping inflation at zero. Since the money supply increases anyway, might as well give the new money as basic income to ALL people. At least the money will be spent directly by the people for economic activities, instead of indirec…

Regarding inflation... if everyone instantly has $X now, doesn't $X become worthless? For instance, why would landlords not raise rents knowing that everyone now has this cash?

If I understand correctly, the money isn't printed -- it's redistributed. The money supply isn't increasing, but it could be that money is more likely to be spent in the short term than sitting in a bank somewhere.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employment is in fact often about fear or force. I work a day job because the state will literally show up with police and guns if I went out into the mountains and lived off the land. Therefore unless I want to starve I must work. Even when it's on shit I hate. I am lucky enough to have a skill that is sufficiently valuable that I can survive despite disabilities making it difficult to work. If you imagine that the…

the state will literally show up with police and guns if I went out into the mountains and lived off the land Why? Is it someone else's land that you're trespassing on, using up their resources, hunting their animals, etc? Shall all of us who don't feel fulfilled do the same thing as you propose? When you hurt yourself and get an infection, are you going to crawl back out of the woods and expect there to still be oth…

> Why? Is it someone else's land that you're trespassing on, using up their resources, hunting their animals, etc?

Yeah. Just about every bit of land is owned by someone. In order to have my own land to live off of I need to produce some income to pay property taxes, lest the state confiscate it from me.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#674
post #542

How does a universal basic income work from economics stand point? Let's say everyone gets $1000/mo. Currently the market knows that everyone has $10 and prices bread accordingly at $1.50. Tomorrow the market will know that everyone has $1010 and will price the bread at $100. Thus everything from food to utilities to rent gets adjusted to the new normal and the poor can't still afford the basics. Is this theory not c…

> Is this theory not correct?

Yes, UBI in most of its incarnations is a deliberately engineered inflationary spiral - a one way ticket to Venezuela. Everyone simply ignores the issue.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When you want something from someone - food, medicine, etc. - you're going to have to offer something in return What if the value of someone's labour is not enough for the things they need to survive? There's no function of the market that ensures it will be. At some point, you either have to help people out without anything in return, or choose to let them die.

What if the value of someone's labour is not enough for the things they need to survive? Sure, we can make a moral argument about that. But that's not what this branch of the debate is about. We were debating the proposition that "money itself tends to disincentivise work for a lot of people" and employment is force. But since you bring it up, my biggest concern about BI is along the same lines as your moral question…

> What's our moral obligation to those people?

I think we can all agree it to be none.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you get bipartisan support for the FairTax? Redesigning the tax structure to favour millionaires ( massive net beneficiaries because their US consumption expenditure is usually a tiny fraction of their capital gains tax and/or income tax bills) over the middle classes (no matter how high the stipend is someone has to pay for the millionaires' tax cut) isn't exactly a popular proposal even on the right That…

Poster is crazy to think liberals will EVER support a hugely regressive tax scheme. Consumption taxes destroy the middle class by acting as vehicle to transport wealth from the middle to the ultrawealthy, which makes it surprising that people continue to suggest it. Now perhaps a consumption tax combined with a large capital gains tax and inheritance tax -- to keep taxes going in the oligarchs economy AND the regular…

> Poster is crazy to think liberals will EVER support a hugely regressive tax scheme. Consumption taxes destroy the middle class by acting as vehicle to transport wealth from the middle to the ultrawealthy, which makes it surprising that people continue to suggest it.

So the proposal is to combine something like VAT with a basic income.

Doing that would cause low income people to have a negative effective tax rate (basic income exceeds taxes), low-middle income people to have a near-zero tax rate (basic income equals taxes), high-middle income people to have a moderate tax rate (taxes exceed basic income by a little) and high income people to have a higher tax rate (taxes exceed basic income by a lot).

In what sense is that regressive? It's the purest form of a progressive tax system. It even has a built in social welfare system for low income people.

The fallacy which is usually put up against this is that the super rich don't spend as much as they earn. The problem is, that's not how income tax works either. Bill Gates doesn't have to pay tax on the appreciation of Microsoft stock until he sells the shares and he doesn't have to sell the shares until he wants to spend the money. "Super-rich don't pay tax on money they don't spend" is the status quo.

And consumption taxes benefit debtors at the expense of creditors. Income tax makes the debtor pay back the debt with after-tax dollars. Consumption tax causes the creditor to be paid in pre-tax dollars.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, you can reduce the amount paid out by making it not a universal basic income scheme any more. But that rather misses the point. You are entirely correct.. but I think you're missing the point. Think of that first description as the marketing pitch to the general public. By saying it is universal and "free" to administer, it gets people behind it who don't think through the consequences.. which is a large chunk…

> But a "no-strings-attached" basic income would force politicians to give up the one thing they desire more than anything: power. I tend to think the exact opposite is true: a universal basic income is conceivably one of the most massive power grabs imaginable. If this comes to pass in America, you're going to have a large chunk of the population COMPLETELY dependent on the government's teat. And ultimately, a popul…

I agree that instating UBI may become an excellent strategy for existing power structures to preserve themselves by paying out the minimal amount to prevent social unrest.

However, I think it will be nearly impossible to succeed in spinning it is "no strings attached" unless everyone really can continue to exercise all of their current rights (to free speech, to the democratic process, etc) without losing the benefits.

You make it sound like the state will be able to say "Don't speak in opposition to our policies or we'll let you starve". I'm skeptical.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#678

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you get bipartisan support for the FairTax? Redesigning the tax structure to favour millionaires ( massive net beneficiaries because their US consumption expenditure is usually a tiny fraction of their capital gains tax and/or income tax bills) over the middle classes (no matter how high the stipend is someone has to pay for the millionaires' tax cut) isn't exactly a popular proposal even on the right That…

> Redesigning the tax structure to favour millionaires ( massive net beneficiaries because their US consumption expenditure is usually a tiny fraction of their capital gains tax and/or income tax bills) This hasn't been true in decades. The people ("millionaires") who make ~150K/year pretty much spend all of it. It's the multi-millionaires and billionaires who make millions a year and don't spend that much, but those…

> And getting rid of capital gains tax would increase economic efficiency because it currently prevents people from selling shares in order to buy better shares unless the advantage of the new shares can overcome the taxes due from selling the existing ones.

Getting rid of capital gains tax to encourage reinvestment is kind of silly. Heck, you could tax capital gains as regular income, and still eliminate any drag on reinvestment by allowing deductions for investment so long as the investments for which such deductions were taken were treated as having a zero basis value.

> It's conceivable that a consumption tax would cause the super-rich to pay more taxes, because if you want the yacht you have to pay the tax

Not really. You just structure the transactions to avoid what is taxable, e.g., you buy the yacht at a low nominal price and simultaneously (and completely coincidentally) by some financial investment not subject to consumption tax from the same party at an inflated price.

Anyone who can avoid paying taxes on their income in an income tax system can avoid paying taxes on it in a consumption tax system. (If you have an "unconditionally tax every transfer of money between two parties" system, it gets harder, but that has all kinds of downsides.)

> but there are currently a lot of tricks you can play to convert stock into stuff without paying tax, like selling only the shares that have decreased in value.

Sure, if you only ever sell shares that have lost value, you can avoid paying the (low) capital gains tax, at the expense of always losing money.

That's not a way to maximize your net, after taxes, utility, but if you want to lose money just to avoid paying a small portion of the gain in taxes...

> The best way to think of a basic income is as a fixed tax refund.

I think you mean "fixed refundable credit" rather than a "fixed refund".

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you get bipartisan support for the FairTax? Redesigning the tax structure to favour millionaires ( massive net beneficiaries because their US consumption expenditure is usually a tiny fraction of their capital gains tax and/or income tax bills) over the middle classes (no matter how high the stipend is someone has to pay for the millionaires' tax cut) isn't exactly a popular proposal even on the right That…

> Redesigning the tax structure to favour millionaires ( massive net beneficiaries because their US consumption expenditure is usually a tiny fraction of their capital gains tax and/or income tax bills) This hasn't been true in decades. The people ("millionaires") who make ~150K/year pretty much spend all of it. It's the multi-millionaires and billionaires who make millions a year and don't spend that much, but those…

They do need to make a higher tax bracket to distinguish the 150-300k a year people from the 500k+ a year households.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#680
post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many potential innovators and inventors are currently slaving away at menial jobs instead of pursuing their passions? The idea that innovation is driven purely by investment is an oversimplification.

Innovation is not driven by humans devoting time and effort to figuring out how to do things better? What do you think innovation is driven by?

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