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Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

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Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#661

Post by davesque »

overgard wrote: post #216
blahedo wrote: post #99

Great idea; shame about the name. Here's the problem with using words like "bro" (however jokingly): the problem is not with what you [0] are thinking when you read the word "bro", but with what other people , especially newcomers, are thinking. The locker-room atmosphere that stuff like this creates is a huge barrier to entry for a lot of people, women especially, who infer that on top of all the technically difficu…

Absolutely, lets throw away our sense of humor and wordplay because there are theoretically people that might be offended (maybe, kindof. You know. In theory.). (N.B. the people that seem to be offended so far are offended on other peoples behalf..) Isn't it way more offensive to assume that women are such dainty delicate creatures that like, they won't get the joke?

You really think that this is just something that people "maybe, kindof. You know. In theory." might be offended about? To me, this is on par with the titstare fiasco. Seriously, people. Grow up and get a life. Not everyone in the world is a "bro".

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#662

Post by wutbrodo »

donotsurveil wrote: post #551
AndyKelley wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with gendered things? The programming language Julia is female, and nobody seems to have a problem with that. What's wrong with a tool that has a male gendered name?

Julia is a first name which is free of negative association. Bro is associated with obnoxious, stupid, despicable, disrespectful.

> Bro is associated with obnoxious, stupid, despicable, disrespectful.

This sounds a hell of a lot more like an issue with you vs an issue with the term. When I think of 'bro', I think of the short form of calling someone brother endearingly. I wasn't even aware of the frat context until a few years ago. Hell, even within the frat context, it's not necessary "obvnoxious, stupid, despicable, disrespectful", it's just a young guy who's part of the party culture that's associated with college, at least in the US.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#663

Post by onnoonno »

KuraFire wrote: post #572
rds2000 wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to make personal examples, if you compare the look at the replies to @defunkt's twitter post, the females cheering - who even go so far as to overly call themselves feminists - have basically no engineer cred to speak for. Not on github, not on LinkedIn. Judging by that and the fact you throw out "feminist" like it's an insult, I'm going to say you've got some pretty heavy bias. Bias? Feminists on twitte…

Have you ever considered the idea that your apparent dislike towards all things and people described as "feminist" suggests that you have, over the course of your seemingly-angry life, adopted a huge amount of misogynistic perspectives on things? Because, hate to break it to you, but you were born a feminist. Everyone is. Every person that has ever lived on planet Earth was born a feminist. Because the idea that wome…

Hey,

I gather that you describe yourself as a feminist. I would assume that means that you do not think highly of MRAs? If so, have you have watched this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp8tToFv-bA

Wouldn't it be a good idea to watch this video to the very end to develop more and better ways of arguing against them and their 'crazy' ideas?

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#664

Post by wutbrodo »

couchand wrote: post #108
boyaka wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adding additional information can be done in parentheses or additional paragraphs, not by pretending to be sources.

Tone argument[0] much? [0]: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument

Ugh, why is the simple-minded application of buzzwords so horribly prevalent in discussions of this nature. I honestly can't think of anything that exemplifies "derailing" more than posting links to Geek Feminism that are almost entirely irrelevant as part of a complaint about someone's comment.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#665

Post by zaroth »

blahedo wrote: post #99

Great idea; shame about the name. Here's the problem with using words like "bro" (however jokingly): the problem is not with what you [0] are thinking when you read the word "bro", but with what other people , especially newcomers, are thinking. The locker-room atmosphere that stuff like this creates is a huge barrier to entry for a lot of people, women especially, who infer that on top of all the technically difficu…

It must always be the act, not merely a description of an act, for which you judge. Words are expression. Meaning must always be expressed, not simply fabricated.

In short, you can't imbue them with any prejudice that you yourself hold for a word. The word is theirs to use for its positive meaning. You cannot police this.

Some words have no positive meaning. This one does, please stay away.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#666

Post by adrienne »

Steuard wrote: post #605
falcolas wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A short confession. After participating in this forum for a few years, I never thought this was an actual problem. Watching this whole thread of conversation has been very enlightening, and not in the way I had hoped. So, on behalf of those of us who had not seen these attitudes before so blatantly on parade, my sincerest apologies.

For me that moment of realization came about three years ago, on an entirely different forum. I came into a discussion (on a topic similar to this) between a female friend of mine and another guy a few hours after it started. Every post of his had me nodding: I probably would have said just the same thing if he hadn't beaten me to it. So it was frustrating and confusing to see my friend getting increasingly hurt and…

Thank you. That's all; just thank you -- for putting in the work, for being willing to be wrong, for fighting the good fight. This stranger, at least, appreciates it.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#667

Post by vectorjohn »

rds2000 wrote: post #501
glesica wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is offensive because it has high potential to create a hostile environment for women. This isn't just me and a few people making shit up, read my comment, it's obvious that the authors knew they were on shaky ground. They tried to defuse the situation with a cute little comment, but it would have been better to just change the name. Read this comment for a better explanation if you're actually confused: https://ne…

What creates a hostile environment for woman is where a sector, made of predominately men is scrutinized with a hysterical "boy who cried wolf" mentality. It's a vicious cycle. 1. First there is a tiny group of feminists, mostly consisting of marketers, call themselves coders, but if you were look them up, they're twittering and having fun more than building. They seem very happy to stir indignation. 2. Then, people…

One of the good things about discussions like this, is that it brings out the real dregs of the community. If not for posts like these, I might be naive enough to think the community really is a welcoming place for all people. But then I see things like "group of feminists, mostly consisting of marketers" and "now any girl with an iPhone can be one!"

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#668

Post by davesque »

unreal37 wrote: post #574
scblock wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually no. Perpetuating the "boys only" impression many programmers seem to want to cultivate is bad. The name is exclusionary, and a poor joke.

If this tool was invented 20 years ago, before the whole brogrammer thing took over the term bro, everyone would have thought it was a clever play on man pages. Seems the word bro itself has become offensive, even if used in a non-offensive context.

Exactly. So why, in this day and age, would someone be stupid enough to name their new tool in that way? It's kinda hard to believe that whoever created this couldn't use a lesson in tact.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#669

Post by wutbrodo »

nknighthb wrote: post #239
pstack wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has been a casual term of friendship and acknowledgement between guys for even longer than it has been a douche-bag-frat-boy-sleazy-programmer reference, however. There's not really any need to associate every occurrence of the word "bro" with that, unless it is clearly intended to do so (which, maybe this is, I wouldn't know). I just know that getting irate over this, at the moment, is like losing your crap over…

> It has been a casual term of friendship and acknowledgement between guys for even longer than it has been a douche-bag-frat-boy-sleazy-programmer reference, however. In my entire life , I have only heard "bro" come from the mouths of bullying douche-bag frat-boy sleazes, usually while telling me the assault they just committed against me was "just a joke". It has never come from anyone I would willingly subject mys…

And in my _entire life_ (including a lot of time spent with friends in fraternities and at frat parties in colleges), I've never heard "bro" used as anything but a shorter form of the term of endearment "brother", or at worst an ironic reference to the stereotype of the super-fratty popped-collar bro. Obviously both usages are prevalent, but your contention is that the term can't POSSIBLY be referring to anything but your usage. Why exactly is that?

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#670

Post by jabelk »

[deleted] wrote: post #362
glesica wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So because I find words and actions that might belittle another person offensive, there's something wrong with me? What would you call me if I objected to a racist joke? Would you claim that I was somehow "whipped" by the targeted minority group? Considering the feelings of others is not a defect, it's part of our humanity.

[deleted]

Bro is exclusionary to women because it is a word for a man or boy. So associating guys (and exclusively guys) with the name bro in this way is a small sign to women that they don't belong. I am sure this seems inconsequential to you, and taken by itself, it is. But as a woman, seeing literally (first definition) dozens of these signs every single day on everything related to technology, it adds up.

You, personally, only notice when something might be exclusionary when someone else brings it up on a site like this. But if you are sensitive to the signs (ie are either a woman or looking really closely) they can be overwhelmingly negative.

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