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How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

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Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#661

Post by dmix »

thinking_cactus wrote: post #583

I think in the future we should think less about fine-based regulation, and more about easy access to education, and assistance in compliance. It's much better for the environment (and the economy) that someone doesn't pollute, for example, than that someone pollutes than pays (a potentially large) fine. So if you want to make a product, there should be readily available, easy to read and follow, guides to make your…

So basically the "pyramids of support" in the responsive regulation idea https://johnbraithwaite.com/responsive-regulation/

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#662

Post by kccqzy »

Huppie wrote: post #630
ajnin wrote: post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The exact scenario from TFA is listed just before the diagram you're referencing : "If a farmer packs a few apples in a container (sales packaging) and sells it under its own name or trademark to a retailer or consumer in the same Member State, the farmer is a producer [for the purpose of EPR obligations]" And : "If the farmer sells the packed apples under its own name or trademark in another Member State, the farmer…

Under definitions (page 9) there's a big section > 6) Who is the ‘manufacturer’ of branded packaging? NEW! And it starts off this blurb: > According to the PPWR (Article 3(1), point (12)), if a packaging does not bear a name or trademark, the manufacturer will be the natural or legal person who manufactures packaging or packaged products. Seems pretty obvious to me the generic bubble envelope example from the blogpos…

How does that jibe with the following paragraph then?

> If company A sells the cardboard boxes to Company C in another Member State, and Company C fills the boxes to transport packaged products, then Company C would typically be the producer in that Member State.

This example makes no mention of whether Company C is a micro-enterprise. This is under transport packaging, not branded packaging.

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#663

Post by gusgus01 »

veeti wrote: post #617
vanviegen wrote: post #616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nevertheless, countless online shops in the EU run by small business have already closed thanks to these regulations. Do you happen to have a source for that?

You can start with the TFA or many given in this comment section.

The article is actually saying they've had record sign ups this year and as far as I can see doesn't make any comment about a decrease in sales in the last 2 weeks since the implementation of this regulation. There is a first hand report of someone stopping their shipping really far down on this post, and then someone on that chain links to a reddit comment from someone as well.

I'm sure there's probably a few comments I missed, but idk if I'd say there's proof of countless here or in the article.

It does seem like it'd have a chilling effect if the article's interpretation is correct, and other comments here also stated that the EU commission wanted to have a central registry to minimize the overhead.

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#664

Post by dmix »

drnick1 wrote: post #647
flaunf221 wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> has no major AI player at all So? Will major AI players introduce universal healthcare in US? Or is it coming along with AGI which is why it should be the most important to every citizen? Or maybe EU citizens should all band together and stop being lazy and go to having 0 mandatory vacation days? Reminds of me very old USSR joke which was basically "we have rockets in space, and don't have sausages in stores".

> So? Will major AI players introduce universal healthcare in US? We don't want universal healthcare, 6-month to one-year waits for routine operations, having to beg doctors for prescriptions, massive tax hikes to pay for all of that while disincentivizing people from working and keeping jobs.

If you want to talk about terrible regulation, the US health insurance system is a great example.

A single payer insurance system would be more rational vs choosing the worst of both worlds, which the US built through layers and layers of political compromise. The private alternative is a no-go politically in the western world so why not just commit to doing it properly?

Although of course that would require US states (more so than federal) to be more fiscally conservative, so the tax increase wouldn't be as burdensome... which might also be a no-go.

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#665

Post by kccqzy »

skylurk wrote: post #478
Aurornis wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not the same all over the world. Starting a small company in the US is a breeze compared to what I’ve watched peers in the EU fight against.

Back in college (USA) friends would spin up LLCs for the summer just to buy mowers or vans to do yard work. They would hire all the students who didn't get summer jobs. Those hired students would make about 3x a STEM intern makes in western europe today.

It was also in the context of Europe that I heard of the concept of an unpaid internship. I was like, what??

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#666

Post by kccqzy »

formerly_proven wrote: post #278
Aurornis wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not the same all over the world. Starting a small company in the US is a breeze compared to what I’ve watched peers in the EU fight against.

Interstate commerce also seems to be vastly easier inside the US in comparison to the alleged single market of the EU. The most companies seem to deal with is California-specific regulations. Meanwhile, most companies in the EU eventually opt to create a ton of subsidiaries, basically one per state, to handle all the localized duties that the EU requires.

Yup the Constitution here has rightly prevented each State from adding regulations that burden interstate commerce. Sometimes that has resulted in overly broad federal oversight (CFTC versus state gaming boards) but most of the time that’s a good thing.

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#667

Post by thfuran »

x0x0 wrote: post #644
marc wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “Spain also smashes foreigners owning a property in Spain.” In which way?

Spain charges you tax if you rent the property out. If you don't rent the property out, it imputes a rent and you are charged tax on the imputed rent. The cadastral value is (finger in the air) 40% of the value of the property; you pay (non-eu resident) 24% of between 1.1% and 2% of the cadastral value. So 0.1%-0.2% of property value annually.

0.2% is significantly lower than the property tax rate I pay on my house, and taxing vacant property seems like a good idea to try to disincentivize inefficient use of limited urban real estate.

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#668

Post by anigbrowl »

veeti wrote: post #612
anigbrowl wrote: post #600

Thanks to tomis who posted the EU FAQ on the topic below: https://op.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/ad1... None of this applies to companies that are micro-enterprises or use generic rather than branded packaging. There's a helpful diagram on page 13. The author of this article seems to have imagined a worst-case scenario based on either a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of the EU rules; the disc…

Simply not true. The helpful diagram you refer to does not consider the case where company A manufactures the packaging, company B buys the packaging, and then does a B2C delivery to another member state. In that case company B is the producer, even if B is a "micro-enterprise". > the discussion here seems to have a lot of people who are in a big rush to demonize their perceived political opponents on ideological gro…

the case where company A manufactures the packaging, company B buys the packaging, and then does a B2C delivery to another member state

In that case company A is the producer. Also, even if the packaging is branded, company A is the producer if company B is a micro-enterprise. Looking through the document further, I notice that producers aren't even liable for detailed reporting until they put 10 tons of packaging material onto the market.

There are a whole lot of people trying to rationalize something crazy. Nevertheless, countless online shops in the EU run by small business have already closed

I'm sure you can find less emotive ways to make your point, like offering some approximate estimates of how many of these small businesses have closed.

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#669

Post by kccqzy »

chermi wrote: post #461
ryukoposting wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's 350M fairly wealthy people under mostly the same tech restrictions and, on a case-by-case basis, those people are generally happy to adopt other states' standards in the name of convenience and efficiency (California notwithstanding). Look at E-ZPass/I-Pass as a great example of harmonization across states. It's funny. Ask any Illinoisan how they feel about adopting Ohio's policies and they'd bristle. But say…

Your example of adoption is interesting. I think California has actually influenced other states on efficiency. I wanted to say disproportionately, but perhaps in exact accordance with their economic and political power. I don't know the details well enough, but I do know that there is an effective anti-fedaralist force in the US wherever federal funding is concerned, as it comes with rules conditions (rules) attache…

Yeah and the best example is California vehicle emission standards.

Re: How Europe is killing makers and micro-entrepreneurs

#670

Post by anigbrowl »

aero_code wrote: post #615
anigbrowl wrote: post #600

Thanks to tomis who posted the EU FAQ on the topic below: https://op.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/ad1... None of this applies to companies that are micro-enterprises or use generic rather than branded packaging. There's a helpful diagram on page 13. The author of this article seems to have imagined a worst-case scenario based on either a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of the EU rules; the disc…

I don't see a diagram on page 13, but I read a few pages around there. I don't see anything about it not applying to micro-enterprises. I see one diagram (PDF page 14/page num 11) that says a farmer selling "under own name or trademark to end user in another Member State" (without saying there's an exception for a micro-enterprise) means that the "Farmer is producer," which sounds like the opposite of what you said.

Sorry, it's on page 12.
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