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Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

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Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#661

Post by OccamsMirror »

vl wrote: post #584
frabcus wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Umm, Fable only really came out 2 weeks ago, and GPT-5.6 Sol only 1 week ago. Yes, Kimi K3 appears a touch below them both, but above all other models. So I'd say a few weeks behind, not months now...

Frontier labs release frontier models to the public only if there is market pressure to do so. Anthropic is not even hiding that they have been using Mythos internally for months now. I wouldn’t be surprised if OpenAI (so much for “open”) is using GPT-6 internally already. It appears that peasants like us are not going to get access to frontier AI anymore at any price.

> Anthropic is not even hiding that they have been using Mythos internally for months now.

This would be more impressive if their software and delivery quality was higher.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#662

Post by roenxi »

wilg wrote: post #629
zwu-var wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies can still make money from commodities Especially Chinese companies. Just think about all the other industries where Chinese companies dominate by extremely low cost.

Isn't that typically because they have lower labor costs? Not sure that applies as much to AI.

I'm not really sure that China's labour costs can be described as "low" these days, going by GDP per capita [0] they're above the global average. They're a little lower than the Europe median I think but the gap probably isn't strategically important.

The Chinese edge tends to come from their environmental laws; they allow their industry to do things that the West would ban.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#663

Post by hnfong »

codemog wrote: post #625
specialist wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an attack on USA's AI tech giants. Destroy any hope of profitability, prevent further capitalization, ultimately bankrupt them. Hasten the popping of the AI bubble. Drag down the stock market. Put a dent in the GDP (alleged growth). Cause investors to pull back, further depressing economy. Devalue the dollar. Kicking off an interest rate doom loop. Challenge USA's hegemonic role in the emergent multi-polar (post…

Not everything is an 8D chess conspiracy mate. If they wanted to do this, they’d wait until OpenAI and Anthropic were at their absolute peaks of investment and then release an open source model that was as good. That’s not what they’ve done at all.

I agree, but you think OpenAI and Anthropic are not already at their absolute peaks of hype and investment?

At valuations of about trillion each, I don't know where else they'd go..

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#664

Post by c0rruptbytes »

nikcub wrote: post #379
theplumber wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> I pretty sure OpenAI and Anthropic are doing the same or worse. No they're not. It would end both companies if they were ever found to be doing that. Their terms are clear - if you use the coding plans they can[0] train in return. Enterprise and API, absolutely not. The argument here is that with the Chinese labs you have zero legal recourse. [0] opt-in, thanks

my experience right now with fable via bedrock is they collect data, 5.6 has the option for ZDR at least

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#667

Post by wmedrano »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #23
Tiberium wrote: post #2

More details: - https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/guide/kimi-k3-quickstart - https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/pricing/chat-k3 1M context, pricing is $3/$15 for 1M tokens (cache $0.3), which is extremely high for a Chinese open-weight model, but if it's truly competitive with most of the current frontier and is only behind Fable/Sol, the pricing is justified. This is 1:1 pricing of Anthropic's Sonnet series (except Sonnet 5…

Tokenizers also matter. Anthropics tokenizers will encode the same piece of text at a way higher token count than OpenAi, for example. That said, Kimi is competing against GLM in my mind, and GLM 5.2 is less than 1/3 the price.

Where does the less than a third the price come from? From the provided benchmark suite, it came slightly under half.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#668

Post by edot »

djoldman wrote: post #510

For day-to-day programming work, have you seen a difference in the quality of output between (Opus 4.6 / GPT 5.2 / GPT-5.3 Codex) and the current (GPT-5.6 / Fable) that justifies the price increase ? My intuition says that the output quality difference is marginal compared to the change in price especially when taking into account the effects of prompt/context engineering and harness differences. Essentially: since o…

I’m starting to come to the opposite approach: don’t try to customize anything, just use it vanilla, and use the best model you can afford. No AGENTS.md, no special subagents or roles, nothing but a few convenience skills which are really just textexpander. Use the harness that the LLM provider makes, and that’s it.

Making a huge custom setup is so 2025.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#669

Post by bigyabai »

boredatoms wrote: post #655
simonw wrote: post #111

Pelican: https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer#url=ht... - rendered via the OpenRouter API: https://openrouter.ai/moonshotai/kimi-k3 95 input, 16,658 output = 25 cents! https://www.llm-prices.com/#it=95&ot=16658&ic=3&oc=15 (13,241 of those were reasoning tokens.) I think that's the most expensive pelican I've rendered through a Chinese model so far.

I worry that some model provider will go and hire artists to draw pictures of pelicans on bicycles to make training data

If it forces LLMs to get better at SVG design, then it's not a terrible incentive.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#670

Post by linzhangrun »

satvikpendem wrote: post #66

Now, will they actually release the weights? Seems like Chinese model providers are slowly closing up, like Alibaba's Qwen 3.6 which did release weights (but not the biggest parameter count ones) and none for 3.7.

Qwen's team has been reorganized, and not open-sourcing also fits Alibaba's usual corporate style...

Other companies have not shown similar problems so far.

China has many government agencies and state-owned enterprises that need models which can be deployed locally. This is also part of "Xinchuang" (self-owned systems, self-owned hardware, etc. New government computers all run special Linux versions on domestic CPUs, and LLMs also need to be like this).

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