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My thoughts on the Bun Rust rewrite

andrewkelley.me

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Re: My thoughts on the Bun Rust rewrite

#661

Post by ipdashc »

ventana wrote: post #222
preommr wrote: post #121

There are astute comments about the post's tone elsewhere in this thread[0] But this killed my hopes for Zig. The drama is fun, and Andrew is maybe even admirable in his earnest, but this just isn't the kind of professionalism needed for a serious project. I know that's boring and uninspired, but that's what I want my tech stack and it's management to be. Also, maybe Jarred was a net negative, but bun was also a real…

> this just isn't the kind of professionalism needed for a serious project I don't immediately see how much the seriousness of the project is related to the language the author chose in their personal blog post. It's similar to saying that Linux could not have become a serious project because of the way Linus communicated in his emails.

A lot of people are defending this as similar to Old Linus, and while both (a) I kinda get it and (b) Linus stopped doing that because it was bad... At least when Linus did it, it was vaguely in the service of giving people a wake up call about their code quality so their future contributions are better.

Versus here, I'm not sure I see the point? I'm not up to date on this drama, but like, Bun has left the project/community. There's nothing lost from staying quiet or just going "okay, bye". Why is there a whole post about how shitty the guy is, what purpose does this serve other than dunking on him for leaving? It comes off as bitter and petty, not because it's wrong or the tone or whatever, but because there's no reason for it.

Re: My thoughts on the Bun Rust rewrite

#662

Post by cout »

tuckwat wrote: post #101

This is unprofessional and embarrassing for Zig. I know very little about Jared but his article yesterday, which I read, seemed appreciative of Zig. I now learn he's donated significant chunks of money to them. This entire article is publicly and personally attacking him for choosing a different product. It's insane to me that Andrew thinks this post will somehow exonerate Zig when it really just makes them look chil…

I got the opposite impression from reading the post. Perhaps this is a Goldilocks situation?

Re: My thoughts on the Bun Rust rewrite

#663

Post by rirze »

suis_siva wrote: post #469

Ex-Bun employee for transparency. I have skin in the game. I respect andrewrk and Jarred in different ways. My understanding are that neither are media trained. Very patronizing post from andrewrk and shows his hostility towards Jarred. I mostly agree with the core meat and potatoes of his post, but the hostile tone, the snarky VC-related remarks, the fact that *most* of his comments felt like a defensive remark. Yes…

I agree.

There's also a universe where he could've written it Linux Torvald-style and still come across as passionate but justified.

Re: My thoughts on the Bun Rust rewrite

#664

Post by ModernMech »

27183 wrote: post #654
ModernMech wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He doesn't owe me anything. But his community deserve better than this.

If they want better than that the fork button is up and to the right.

I mean you’re not wrong, the only power his community has is to vote with their feet, and that’s what will happen. We’ve seen it before in other languages where the BDFL had an unchecked ego problem. Others brought up Elm and Evan and I agree. We all saw how that turned out.

Re: My thoughts on the Bun Rust rewrite

#665

Post by ModernMech »

27183 wrote: post #653
deanCommie wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I get where you're coming from, I do. In the last decade, we've seen rampant abuses and exploitation of open source projects and of maintainers. So much individual good will and generous efforts wasted because of corporate malfeasanse. AND YET . If you "open source" a project, if you actually invest in BUILDING a community, you then become a PART Of that community - with the benefits and obligations that come w…

Yeah I'm not defending the blog post as a great way to build the biggest bestest community. Clearly it isn't. But it's also pretty clear that's not the poster's priority. And that is defensible! They don't owe anyone perfection in community building or any other thing. If they want to write a maybe slightly unhinged blog post excoriating someone they had an unpleasant time with... that's a choice! It's their choice.…

> I'm not defending the blog post as a great way to build the biggest bestest community. Clearly it isn't.

This has been everyone's point the entire time. You agree with everyone here. No one is suggesting a binding contract exists, but a _social_ contract does exist -- and you concede that with the above recognition of how clearly this post violates it.

Re: My thoughts on the Bun Rust rewrite

#666

Post by pcstl »

slopinthebag wrote: post #548
semiquaver wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real engineers don’t eschew powerful engineering tools because of what their political tribe says about them.

Real engineers aren't vibe coding. Please don't mistake Bun, Claude Code, web development et al, etc, as "engineering".

What is real engineering?

Re: My thoughts on the Bun Rust rewrite

#667

Post by abacate »

ovao wrote: post #593
Jarred wrote: post #274

I have learned so much reading Andrew’s code and as I said in the original post: Bun would never have happened without Zig. > The post claims they were fuzzing their Zig code, while during our calls the whole Bun team told us that they were not fuzzing anything. This appears to be an outright fabrication. Fuzzilli integration: https://github.com/oven-sh/bun/pull/24826 Merged PRs fixing issues Fuzzilli found in Bun’s…

Note that Andrew's since removed the “outright fabrication” bit from his post. No indication of the edit itself though, which is a choice.

Original post: https://archive.is/wNLqY

Updated version: https://archive.is/TpsUW

Re: My thoughts on the Bun Rust rewrite

#668

Post by neutronicus »

abc42 wrote: post #655
neutronicus wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Childish or no, anti-AI sentiment is ubiquitous and growing. From a PR perspective there’s a lot to gain in the short term by picking the “anti-AI” lane. And you can always change your mind later.

Or perhaps it's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations and the people with anti-AI sentiment are called "laggards". If so, their amount will likely be near zero soon. This has happened thousands of times in human history.

Sure. That’s why I said “short-term” and “change your mind later”.

The thing about laggards is their money spends the same as everyone else’s.

Re: My thoughts on the Bun Rust rewrite

#669

Post by 12345hn6789 »

slopinthebag wrote: post #548
semiquaver wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real engineers don’t eschew powerful engineering tools because of what their political tribe says about them.

Real engineers aren't vibe coding. Please don't mistake Bun, Claude Code, web development et al, etc, as "engineering".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Re: My thoughts on the Bun Rust rewrite

#670

Post by [deleted] »

silver_silver wrote: post #642
Jarred wrote: post #274

I have learned so much reading Andrew’s code and as I said in the original post: Bun would never have happened without Zig. > The post claims they were fuzzing their Zig code, while during our calls the whole Bun team told us that they were not fuzzing anything. This appears to be an outright fabrication. Fuzzilli integration: https://github.com/oven-sh/bun/pull/24826 Merged PRs fixing issues Fuzzilli found in Bun’s…

All of those commits except the initial integration are from after the acquisition. How do we know this wasn’t done without anyone on the call’s knowledge?

[deleted]
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