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It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

jeffgeerling.com

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Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#661

Post by pdimitar »

pjmlp wrote: post #642
simondotau wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Base model used to mean glorified toy with severely compromised fundamentals. The Macbook Neo is not that. It is an excellent screen, excellent keyboard, and excellent silicon, encased in an excellent chassis. As a remote work terminal / casual computing system, the compromises are IMHO almost entirely psychological.

8 GB is certainly a compromise and the main reason I won't consider it, for the price in euros.

MacBooks are still unbeaten hardware-wise. Yes 8GB of RAM is embarrassing, no question about it.

I'll buy a Neo just for travel. I will remote to my machines with it.

Though I'm flabbergasted why has nobody else made as thin and lightweight laptop like Apple... for decades. And that includes no fan, or just a very quiet one.

I have no love for Apple at all. But the Neo is a game-changer and a well-deserved kick in the nuts of, well, every other hardware company really.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#662

Post by [deleted] »

itake wrote: post #651
actionfromafar wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off topic but I think many models of cars, when properly maintained , have very predictable and good reliability.

You are probably correct, but... there is still higher risk of unplanned or extended service time as the car ages. For example, my 2018 Honda fit has a part recall. The service center needs the car the entire day and the tank to be less than 25%. This isn't something new cars would have to deal with.

[deleted]

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#663

Post by mixmastamyk »

cromka wrote: post #653
mixmastamyk wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

zswap works well in my experience. Don't need both. Combined with systemd-oomd I haven't had a swapping or memory issue in many years. 16gb here with VMs and lots going on. This doc clears some things up: https://chrisdown.name/2026/03/24/zswap-vs-zram-when-to-use-...

> Combined with systemd-oomd That's my whole point: on Linux a process gets killed to prevent a system lock up if you're about to run out of memory or swap. That never happens on macOS, as long as you have some SSD left, period.

That’s not what I want (rogue program swapping until disk full), nor do I think most people want. Current zswap+oomd behavior is the best choice imho.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#664

Post by pjmlp »

pdimitar wrote: post #661
pjmlp wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

8 GB is certainly a compromise and the main reason I won't consider it, for the price in euros.

MacBooks are still unbeaten hardware-wise. Yes 8GB of RAM is embarrassing, no question about it. I'll buy a Neo just for travel. I will remote to my machines with it. Though I'm flabbergasted why has nobody else made as thin and lightweight laptop like Apple... for decades. And that includes no fan, or just a very quiet one. I have no love for Apple at all. But the Neo is a game-changer and a well-deserved kick in th…

Not really, I tend to avoid computer appliances, other than phones and tablets.

I certainly am not paying 800 euros for a travel laptop, when a 350 euros Asus 1215B, that could be upgraded, was able to survive about a decade, with 8GB in 2011!

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#665

Post by simondotau »

pjmlp wrote: post #642
simondotau wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Base model used to mean glorified toy with severely compromised fundamentals. The Macbook Neo is not that. It is an excellent screen, excellent keyboard, and excellent silicon, encased in an excellent chassis. As a remote work terminal / casual computing system, the compromises are IMHO almost entirely psychological.

8 GB is certainly a compromise and the main reason I won't consider it, for the price in euros.

It's not enough to be a primary workstation for anyone who reads Hacker News. But for me, a laptop is a secondary device for remote work. I have a base model M1 with 16GB of RAM, and honestly only got the RAM upgrade because I wasn't price sensitive. I'm typing this reply in a tab-infested Firefox right now, and even with a bunch of other programs open, active/wired memory is slightly less than 9GB.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#666

Post by pepperoni_pizza »

fsflover wrote: post #656
pepperoni_pizza wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a common dilemma. Apple's phones and laptop are 100 % the best in the market, but Apple is a terrible evil company - the walled garden stuff, the "you don't really own your device" stuff, the normalization of enshittification (removing headphone jack, nonreplaceable glued batteries, not giving charger with $1000 laptop, ...) that other manufacturers followed, the gold statue Cook gave Trump as a bribe. But no…

The real alternative is GNU/Linux phones.

Not if you can't run you bank's app on it and without bank's app you can't have bank account. Or interact with government. Or talk to your friends because of network effects around social networks.

I wish it were a real alternative, but it is not the world we live in.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#667

Post by fsflover »

pepperoni_pizza wrote: post #666
fsflover wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real alternative is GNU/Linux phones.

Not if you can't run you bank's app on it and without bank's app you can't have bank account. Or interact with government. Or talk to your friends because of network effects around social networks. I wish it were a real alternative, but it is not the world we live in.

You can run a bank app with Waydroid, and you can (and should) switch from a bank that forces you into the duopoly. I did. Many banks have an alternative authentication device, too.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#668

Post by simondotau »

pdimitar wrote: post #661
pjmlp wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

8 GB is certainly a compromise and the main reason I won't consider it, for the price in euros.

MacBooks are still unbeaten hardware-wise. Yes 8GB of RAM is embarrassing, no question about it. I'll buy a Neo just for travel. I will remote to my machines with it. Though I'm flabbergasted why has nobody else made as thin and lightweight laptop like Apple... for decades. And that includes no fan, or just a very quiet one. I have no love for Apple at all. But the Neo is a game-changer and a well-deserved kick in th…

An interesting perspective the designers of the Tesla Model S had was "battery bucks". The oft-cited example was some fancy wheel bearing which had a expensive per-unit cost which no normal OEM would even consider, because being half a percent more efficient didn't matter. Whereas for Tesla, half a percent efficiency reduced the need for hundreds of dollars of batteries.

I wonder if there's some opportunity for Apple to think about "RAM bucks" and turn memory efficiency into an economic opportunity. I find it difficult to believe that modern operating systems actually need to consume so much.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#669

Post by makeitdouble »

pdimitar wrote: post #661
pjmlp wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

8 GB is certainly a compromise and the main reason I won't consider it, for the price in euros.

MacBooks are still unbeaten hardware-wise. Yes 8GB of RAM is embarrassing, no question about it. I'll buy a Neo just for travel. I will remote to my machines with it. Though I'm flabbergasted why has nobody else made as thin and lightweight laptop like Apple... for decades. And that includes no fan, or just a very quiet one. I have no love for Apple at all. But the Neo is a game-changer and a well-deserved kick in th…

> MacBooks are still unbeaten hardware-wise.

I'm still fascinated by how people throw these praises around with no justifications what so ever.

Even staying within Apple lineups, as a thought experiment, do you think iPad Pro have inferior hardware ? they sure can't beat MacBooks, right ?

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#670

Post by pdimitar »

makeitdouble wrote: post #669
pdimitar wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MacBooks are still unbeaten hardware-wise. Yes 8GB of RAM is embarrassing, no question about it. I'll buy a Neo just for travel. I will remote to my machines with it. Though I'm flabbergasted why has nobody else made as thin and lightweight laptop like Apple... for decades. And that includes no fan, or just a very quiet one. I have no love for Apple at all. But the Neo is a game-changer and a well-deserved kick in th…

> MacBooks are still unbeaten hardware-wise. I'm still fascinated by how people throw these praises around with no justifications what so ever. Even staying within Apple lineups, as a thought experiment, do you think iPad Pro have inferior hardware ? they sure can't beat MacBooks, right ?

Point me at a laptop as small and quiet. Hell, let's forget weight. I'll gladly lug around 2.5kg machine if it almost never turns its fan on and is as compact.

Actually let's not care about compactness either. Can go up to 17". Just show me a truly quiet laptop.

You are misjudging me here. I'm moving back to Linux after using Macs for 7 years. My desktop Mac is soon going to be history. macOS makes too many choices for me that I dislike. We're not just talking stylistically or philosophically; those I can mostly get over if needed. We're talking objectively and technologically.

I want a good travel machine however. People look at you funny on meetups when your laptop starts blasting jet engines. Nobody is saying it out loud but you're becoming the odd one out and that has a social and career cost. (That's not even touching the fact that noisy machines stress me out and break my focus.)

I'll get a Neo for travel even if I hate giving Apple money. Because everyone else is two decades behind.

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