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All phones sold in the EU to have replaceable batteries from 2027

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Re: All phones sold in the EU to have replaceable batteries from 2027

#661

Post by vehemenz »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #602
askl wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you really want to be able to self-swap your own battery, you can just buy an Android that has a replaceable battery. Those don't really exist anymore. > Do we need to regulate something that isn't a problem? It is a problem and needs to be regulated. > All regulation has downsides, is it worth paying this price here? Of course the upsides of regulations are worth it. The downsides might cause slight inconvenien…

Of course the upsides of regulations are worth it. The downsides might cause slight inconvenience to the manufacturer, so that doesn't really matter. Your next phone will be heavier, bulkier, more expensive, and less reliable as a result of these regulations. It will also probably not run as long between charges. If bureaucrats in Brussels were better at designing phones than Apple, wouldn't they be doing just that?

I agree with the overall thrust of your comment, but you’re overstating it a bit. Removable batteries bring benefits, and the tradeoffs aren’t as dire as you make them seem.

It’s ridiculous that regulators are forcing Apple’s hand with design and engineering (I was one of the few against the USB-C switch), but it is also true that Apple is often incapable of making certain kinds of design decisions that have become impossible due to organizational inertia or shareholder-pleasing. Look no further than macOS 26, or the history of bad design decisions on the hardware side.

Re: All phones sold in the EU to have replaceable batteries from 2027

#662

Post by ghshephard »

kennywinker wrote: post #656
kolinko wrote: post #625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With cameras you don't care about every mm of width, nor about how resistant it is to falls. With phones you do. I, for one, don't welcome that change. I'd be ok with paying someone a bit extra to replace the battery. I mean, I'd be ok if I had a battery die in my phone in the last 10 years, which I don't remember it did.

Personally I’m confused why people say they want a thinner phone while carrying a phone that’s keeps getting larger every model. When was the last time you kept a phone longer than 2-3 years? That’d explain why you haven’t had one die. Assuming you do get a new phone regularly, easy battery replacement will probably help the resale value of your own a fair bit - the labour cost of a battery replacement is priced into…

My average time on a smartphone is now at 4 years, feels like it's going to 5 pretty soon. [Last upgrade was for USB-C. Next upgrade will be for on-device LLM. It's wild how approximately 0% of what Apple has done outside of the USB-C connector has mattered to me in the last 10+ years - low-light photography is probably the only other thing that comes to mind. ]

I've had two battery replacements since 2015. One of them was required, the other was mostly optional (battery had dropped to 90% on my iPhone - which was probably sufficient).

USB-C - that was an awesome requirement that it was unclear whether Apple was ever going to do.

User Replaceable Battery? Zero desire, particularly if it reduces water resistance on the device. Dozens of things I've wanted from a phone - being able to replace the battery has never even entered my mind as something I wanted.

Re: All phones sold in the EU to have replaceable batteries from 2027

#663

Post by t_sawyer »

pnw wrote: post #651
spaqin wrote: post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've had thin smartphones with replaceable batteries 15 years ago. That was the standard. Galaxy S5 was the last one in that series, and it's not looking too different from today. It was even IP rated for water! Batteries also don't really die, but you get shorter and shorter life. When a device that barely could make it through 2 days of use now survives for less than one, an "upgrade" seems nicer than it really wo…

The S5 was IP67 rated but only if the USB port flap was sealed. Modern phones like the S24 and iPhones are IP68 rated without covers. As someone who spends a lot of time outdoors in the rain, giving up superior IP68 water resistance for a replaceable battery that I'll never replace will be a downgrade for me.

GoPros are IP68 rated without a housing and have removable batteries. This is not an impossible task.

Phone makers do not want you to be able to replace batteries easily because it will extend the life of a phone. End of story.

Re: All phones sold in the EU to have replaceable batteries from 2027

#664

Post by Zak »

snvzz wrote: post #636
Zak wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I moderate /r/flashlight. Something I've seen a substantial increase in over the past few years is people who are surprised to learn that it's possible to have a built-in charger in combination with a field-replaceable battery. It doesn't take much explaining; it just hadn't occurred to them because the devices they're used to don't work that way. People don't change batteries in their phones now because they'd need…

re: flashlights. Still no real upgrade for hexbright, which is a shame. I wish they were still being made. Fortunately, mine are still fine, and I expect to be able to repair them should they break. (xtal is a common failure point apparently) Standard battery type is nice, but also has microusb charging port, the part that didn't age well. Perhaps new circuit boards (with usb-pd charging, usb-c connector and mems osc…

I suppose it depends on what you want out of a flashlight. It's kind of cool that you can flash the firmware over USB, but the rest of it is middling, and there are quite a few flashlights today running open source firmwares with exposed flashing pads.

Regulated, open source, flashable, USB-charging, and a standardized battery describes most lights from https://www.firefly-outdoor.com/

Re: All phones sold in the EU to have replaceable batteries from 2027

#665

Post by Ar-Curunir »

bko wrote: post #660
rythie wrote: post #584

It’s been long enough that people of forgotten what’s it’s like. Cameras still have replaceable batteries, there are several benefits: I can have two (or more) batteries, if it runs out I just change it. I don’t need walk around with a USB battery pack and cable hanging off the device preventing me from using it properly. I can put the battery on charge somewhere and leave it, even if not completely secure, because j…

The fact that pretty much no phones have a replaceable battery says something. And it doesn't mean that all manufacturers are somehow colluding with each. The market is very competitive and pretty much every manufacturer decided the trade offs are not worth the benefit. If Samsung or Xiaomi or Google could sell you a better phone with a replaceable battery, they would. But everyone came to the conclusion that the tra…

Ah yes, “market knows best”.

Perhaps consider that what companies are optimizing for isn’t what is best for consumers, or humanity, or the earth.

Re: All phones sold in the EU to have replaceable batteries from 2027

#666

Post by kennywinker »

ghshephard wrote: post #662
kennywinker wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I’m confused why people say they want a thinner phone while carrying a phone that’s keeps getting larger every model. When was the last time you kept a phone longer than 2-3 years? That’d explain why you haven’t had one die. Assuming you do get a new phone regularly, easy battery replacement will probably help the resale value of your own a fair bit - the labour cost of a battery replacement is priced into…

My average time on a smartphone is now at 4 years, feels like it's going to 5 pretty soon. [Last upgrade was for USB-C. Next upgrade will be for on-device LLM. It's wild how approximately 0% of what Apple has done outside of the USB-C connector has mattered to me in the last 10+ years - low-light photography is probably the only other thing that comes to mind. ] I've had two battery replacements since 2015. One of th…

Your cycle is 4 years, and you’ve had two phone batteries replaced in 11 years? That’s 2/2.75 phones.

Ok, one was optional, and let’s round up to 3. So 1/3 of your phones. Kinda sounds like you would benefit from replaceable batteries.

Regardless, those 4-5 year old phones likely went to ewaste immediately or soon after you were done with them because the cost of replacing the battery was less than their resale value after 4-5 years.

That’s a pattern our planet literally can’t handle. Wars over digging up minerals using slave labour then putting them in phones for 3-5 years just to send them to have children get chemical burns stripping the metals out of them.

My last computer lasted me 11 years, with two battery replacements along the way. My phone should do the same, just as easily.

Re: All phones sold in the EU to have replaceable batteries from 2027

#667

Post by cataphract »

bko wrote: post #660
rythie wrote: post #584

It’s been long enough that people of forgotten what’s it’s like. Cameras still have replaceable batteries, there are several benefits: I can have two (or more) batteries, if it runs out I just change it. I don’t need walk around with a USB battery pack and cable hanging off the device preventing me from using it properly. I can put the battery on charge somewhere and leave it, even if not completely secure, because j…

The fact that pretty much no phones have a replaceable battery says something. And it doesn't mean that all manufacturers are somehow colluding with each. The market is very competitive and pretty much every manufacturer decided the trade offs are not worth the benefit. If Samsung or Xiaomi or Google could sell you a better phone with a replaceable battery, they would. But everyone came to the conclusion that the tra…

I don't think the objective is to make it a "superior product" in the somewhat circular way you're defining it (i.e., the market equilibrium that we settled on). It's one of several measures to try to have people keep their phones for longer and cut e-waste.

Re: All phones sold in the EU to have replaceable batteries from 2027

#668

Post by vrganj »

loeber wrote: post #462

I worry that this ends up, like other EU consumer-protection regulation, as an own goal. - The cheapest phones available in the EU (and purchasable online) all have glued-in batteries, not swappable ones. Forcing consumers to use phones with swappable batteries may just mean that the bottom of the market disappears, and consumers will be left paying more for their phones. And would they rather pay less or have swappa…

Not having cheap plastic junk that ends up as toxic landfill is a pro, not a con.

"Cheap" isn't enough, especially if it's cheap through externalizing cost.

Re: All phones sold in the EU to have replaceable batteries from 2027

#669

Post by bko »

cataphract wrote: post #667
bko wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that pretty much no phones have a replaceable battery says something. And it doesn't mean that all manufacturers are somehow colluding with each. The market is very competitive and pretty much every manufacturer decided the trade offs are not worth the benefit. If Samsung or Xiaomi or Google could sell you a better phone with a replaceable battery, they would. But everyone came to the conclusion that the tra…

I don't think the objective is to make it a "superior product" in the somewhat circular way you're defining it (i.e., the market equilibrium that we settled on). It's one of several measures to try to have people keep their phones for longer and cut e-waste.

Slow down innovation is certainly one way to have people keep their phones longer and cut e-waste. Imagine if they allowed air conditioners...

Re: All phones sold in the EU to have replaceable batteries from 2027

#670

Post by ACow_Adonis »

bko wrote: post #660
rythie wrote: post #584

It’s been long enough that people of forgotten what’s it’s like. Cameras still have replaceable batteries, there are several benefits: I can have two (or more) batteries, if it runs out I just change it. I don’t need walk around with a USB battery pack and cable hanging off the device preventing me from using it properly. I can put the battery on charge somewhere and leave it, even if not completely secure, because j…

The fact that pretty much no phones have a replaceable battery says something. And it doesn't mean that all manufacturers are somehow colluding with each. The market is very competitive and pretty much every manufacturer decided the trade offs are not worth the benefit. If Samsung or Xiaomi or Google could sell you a better phone with a replaceable battery, they would. But everyone came to the conclusion that the tra…

Because I don't have a few billion dollars in my back pocket and even if I did, planned obsolescence and dark patterns are infinitely more profitable thus regulation is needed to achieve consumer positive outcomes?
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