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Euro firms must ditch Uncle Sam's clouds and go EU-native

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Re: Euro firms must ditch Uncle Sam's clouds and go EU-native

#661

Post by MadDemon »

barnacs wrote: post #435
MadDemon wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greece took on more debt than they could serve. Do you expect the tax payers from other countries to just pay for that without significant changes to how Greece operates? If you can't pay your debts and you can't print your own currency, you lose some sovereignty. But I feel like Greece would have been worse off if they still had the drachma and tried to print their way out of the crisis.

Pretty much every single country in the world has taken on more debt than they can serve. And the 2008 crisis wasn't triggered by Greece either. The private creditors should have taken the loss. And that holds true for the rest of the world.

If a debtor can't pay their debt, you don't just get to wipe out the bond holders. There is some kind of negotiation to try to restructure the debt and see how much the bond holders can still get. Simply wiping out the debt would create a terrible precedent with terrible consequences for the credibility of the whole eurozone. Who would want to lend money to an EU country if they just get wiped out when things get bad? It would've also had bad consequences for the financial system and potentially caused some institutions to go belly up. The way that countries typically get rid of their debt is by printing money to serve it and thereby inflating it away. But that is obviously not popular among the remaining EU countries. It was always clear that the Euro comes with this constraint that you can't just inflate away your debt.

Re: Euro firms must ditch Uncle Sam's clouds and go EU-native

#662

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

pqtyw wrote: post #632
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean? There was never any question of attacking Russia and fighting any war on their soil. Nobody in their right mind would attack a country with the 2nd largest army and nuclear weapons. The war in Ukraine definitely made this army still very weak, but, except Ukraine defending itself, I don't see anyone rushing to attack Russia anytime soon. It makes no sense now and made no sense before they invaded Uk…

> with the 2nd largest army By what metric?

Global Firepower maintains a database and is a popular reference: https://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-de...

But I saw several people criticizing their relatively high position on this chart given high incompetence and losses.

EDIT: Apparently this website doesn't follow any rigorous methodology. So basically the only thing their army is 2nd in the world is the nominal number of nukes (hopefully most of them don't work).

Re: Euro firms must ditch Uncle Sam's clouds and go EU-native

#663

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

hilbert42 wrote: post #654
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean? There was never any question of attacking Russia and fighting any war on their soil. Nobody in their right mind would attack a country with the 2nd largest army and nuclear weapons. The war in Ukraine definitely made this army still very weak, but, except Ukraine defending itself, I don't see anyone rushing to attack Russia anytime soon. It makes no sense now and made no sense before they invaded Uk…

The best way to 'attack' Russia is to undermine its economic and political systems then let unrest amongst its citizenry do the dirty work. 1917 showed Russia's proletariat was very effective at achieving regime change.

How do you undermine the economic and political system of a country? The economic one can be undermined by sanctions, and they happened only because the war - before that the West was happy to send billions to Russia. The political one seems quite stable, Putin had a few decades to cement it and make sure nobody takes it to the streets, and if someone is brave enough to do it, they will be quickly pacified. He is switching the internet on and off and there is no sign of Russians reacting like Iranians.

Re: Euro firms must ditch Uncle Sam's clouds and go EU-native

#664

Post by DoesntMatter22 »

pixelpoet wrote: post #459
ExoticPearTree wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll bite. Nothing would have come of it. Ehe EU would have been upset for 3-6 months, then it would have got onboard with the idea that Greenland is now a US territory and that's that. France has a too good of a cuisine to be invaded. I think Germany would be next, they are running their mouth more than they should and they suck at food. Unless the mid-terms change the political majority in the US, the Democrats can…

This is some top notch r/ShitAmericansSay material, especially Germany "running their mouth" and having bad food. Add in democrats "wining" and I'm pretty sure this post belongs on a Confederate cooking blog rather than HN.

Europe can’t defend itself without the US. That’s not the Us saying it that is coming from Europe itself.

All this stuff is mostly grandstanding

Re: Euro firms must ditch Uncle Sam's clouds and go EU-native

#665

Post by matteocontrini »

procaryote wrote: post #438
hk__2 wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about OVH?

OVH is awful. The UI is slow and buggy, operations often fail and you need slow contact with support. Worse, closing an OVH account is very hard. Every domain you host there they sign you up to several services, and you need to manually disable each one before they let you close the account. This then often gets stuck, because of the broken UI, and you end up needing to badger support over and over until they'll fix…

They're working on a new manager UI that should solve most pain points:

https://x.com/i/status/2002765582073274826

https://x.com/i/status/2015829450764513753

Re: Euro firms must ditch Uncle Sam's clouds and go EU-native

#666

Post by bjackman »

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #414
pyrale wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the only ways we can get serious Euroclouds is some combination of Just mandate EU countries' public administration to rely exclusively on EU cloud solutions. That doesn't need to be done at once. This would create enough of a captive market to start the homegrown industry. > Europeans have to use lower-level infra and do a lot more ops in-house To be honest, every large enough company would benefit from do…

> Just mandate EU countries' public administration to rely exclusively on EU cloud solutions. This happens already in some areas and it is not cheaper or better. The EU funds national clouds where public institutions use them. What does it mean? VMware with Tanzu or OpenStack. And then some services thrown in to offer some S3 like buckets and that's it. The rest has to be built by the beneficiaries. Servers? Brand na…

> not cheaper or better

Yeah. The EuroCloud will always be dramatically more expensive and much much worse. Anyone who's claiming otherwise is living a fantasy. The only argument that makes sense is "but it's worth it".

(One detail: it will be much worse at the margins where current clouds actually compete. But actually I suspect only a small number of our customers actually exist at that margin. I think a lot of people are just massively overpaying for their cloud platform and so they might be fine with a EuroCloud anyway. This is why you hear stories today like "we switched to Hetzner, halved our bill, and it works exactly as well as the AWS products we used to use).

> And then some services thrown in to offer some S3 like buckets and that's it. The rest has to be built by the beneficiaries.

Ditto, a fully featured EuroCloud is not gonna happen. Again, it has to be worth this cost.

> Brand names like NetApp, HP, Dell, Lenovo, 3Par, IBM and the list goes on.

This is the only part where I disagree. I think it's OK if the EuroCloud is built out of US hardware (like how the AmeriCloud is very far from free of Chinese hardware). Obviously presents a significant risk re supply chain security but still, the _really_ important thing is actually sovereign operations. The most important thing is who has the keys to the DC.

Re: Euro firms must ditch Uncle Sam's clouds and go EU-native

#667

Post by belorn »

pu_pe wrote: post #491
belorn wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go through a security review. It not as simple as just saying "we outsource that so we have no idea what they do or how they manage the data". It is disingenuous to claim that people can just outsource the whole problem and not care. This would be part of the responsibility of the cloud managers, which need to be hired, paid and trained, on top of the cost of paying the cloud providers. There is no free lunch.

Sorry but I think it is indeed much easier to have a cloud provider take care of those things. That's partly how we came to the situation we are in: a lot of people outsourced this type of work to Microsoft or AWS, because it was easier. I get what you are saying, that responsibility is still yours for making the correct choices, and to know what the cloud providers are doing. In the real world though hardly anybody…

Yes, it is true that no one ever got fired for buying IBM. It is also very common that people just use an AI for reviews and then deal with the fallout if anyone actually calls them on the bluff. Paying fines, if anyone do care, are just part of doing business.

However in the same way, it doesn't then matter much if you are using the cloud or not. The work needing to copy the output of an AI to fill in the forms takes similar amount of time.

Re: Euro firms must ditch Uncle Sam's clouds and go EU-native

#668

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

DoesntMatter22 wrote: post #664
pixelpoet wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is some top notch r/ShitAmericansSay material, especially Germany "running their mouth" and having bad food. Add in democrats "wining" and I'm pretty sure this post belongs on a Confederate cooking blog rather than HN.

Europe can’t defend itself without the US. That’s not the Us saying it that is coming from Europe itself. All this stuff is mostly grandstanding

> Europe can’t defend itself without the US.

It depends on what exactly Europe needs to defend itself against.

And Europe is quite rightly starting to regard this US-dependence as a problem to be solved without further delay, rather than an eternal and immutable fact of the world.

Re: Euro firms must ditch Uncle Sam's clouds and go EU-native

#669

Post by whatthecloud »

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #407
Nextgrid wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re going to go multi-region and take the latency hit may as well go multi-provider no? Multi-region within the same provider won’t shield you against unknown shared dependencies on a single point of failure (AWS console auth still relies on credentials being checked in a single region if I remember right). And yes fully agreed that maintaining consistency between active-active regions (whether cloud or bare-me…

> If you’re going to go multi-region and take the latency hit may as well go multi-provider no? No. If you go multi-region, you use the same tooling, same terraform modules and logic and so on. There's little plumbing needed to make it work. And latency wise this is not an issue in most cases, since most of the requests are covered by the CDN anyway. And you don't have to duplicate everything. If you go multi-cloud y…

> If you go multi-cloud you need to learn a whole new set of systems.

Isn't the whole point of Kubernetes that you don't need to do this? Also, if you want to know for certain that you aren't "vendor locked", running on two clouds is a constant test of that fact. That is to say, have a stack that can deploy to Kubernetes then have two clusters in separate clouds.

Re: Euro firms must ditch Uncle Sam's clouds and go EU-native

#670

Post by GoblinSlayer »

michaelt wrote: post #386
nixpulvis wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm absolutely not an expert, but critical things for power and food production not to mention medical supplies and emergency equipment are also tied up pretty deeply in international trade. The world would break pretty quickly if we all just stopped trading with each other.

Sure, but many products can be sourced from a load of countries. If you can't get natural gas from Russia you can get it shipped from America or Australia or Qatar - it's expensive as hell, and you might need to quickly build new regasification plants, but your economy keeps running. And there's no remote kill switch that disables the gas you already have in-country. That's not the case for the services provided by A…

Self hosted ms installations have no instant kill switch, only a slow one.
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