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Britain to introduce compulsory digital ID for workers

reuters.com

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Re: Britain to introduce compulsory digital ID for workers

#661

Post by card_zero »

pjc50 wrote: post #201
celticninja wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you explain what it is you find so distasteful about ID cards? I mean if you have a passport then you already have an 'ID card', but I certainly don't want to take that out with me to prove my age.

It all depends on exactly when they're mandatory and what tracking is associated with them. My own personal thinking has evolved on the subject since I campaigned against ID cards under Blair ("no2id"). It is a question of trust and purpose. Things like the Estonian digital identity scheme do not seem to be bad in practice. The problem comes from identity checkpoints, which serve as an opportunity for inconvenience,…

I dug up some antique privacy anxiety from Duncan Campbell in 1986, about the National Insurance numbercards introduced in 1984.

https://archive.org/details/onrecordsurveill0000camp/page/88...

It's an interesting museum piece.

> Through this new network, much personal information which the individual has to provide, for example to claim a benefit, or to an employer - will be routed through successive computers to wind up on a ‘central index’. Even if no new law is passed, the effect of the system will be to create a national population register which each individual is obliged to inform of changes of name and address (and often a great deal more). Moreover, by the same time, the majority of adults (on present plans) will have been issued with a National Insurance (NI) ‘Numbercard’, laying an easy basis for the future introduction of a national identity-card system.

> Since the start of 1984, a NI Numbercard - resembling a standard plastic credit card, complete with signature space and a magnetic strip encoding the bearer’s name and number — has been issued to everyone reaching the age of 16, and to anyone else registering in the NI system for the first time or applying for a new card.

> Eventually, the cards could be used in automatic readers, similar to the present automatic telling machines (ATMs, or cash dispensers) installed by most banks.

> Despite government claims to the contrary, the Lindop committee concluded that the British NI number was already close to being used as a personal identity system. Although no further government proposals have been made for the use of the NI Numbercard, it is fairly certain that - for benefit claimants at least - its carrying will become obligatory. It did not take long for suggestions about compulsory carrying of NI cards to creep into public discussion. In August 1984, in what NCCL called the ‘thin end of a nasty wedge’, the Public Accounts Committee of the House of Commons suggested that casual workers should be issued with the new Numbercards and required to produce their cards when being paid - so that information about payments made to them could be collated successfully by the Inland Revenue.

Here's also a picture of the thing in an advert in Smash Hits:

https://archive.org/details/smash-hits-5-18-june-1985/page/n...

I think they got rid of the magnetic strip at some point, and it never became mandatory to carry them or show them.

Re: Britain to introduce compulsory digital ID for workers

#663

Post by clickety_clack »

aftergibson wrote: post #189

A secure, optional digital ID could be useful. But not in today’s UK. Why? Because the state has already shown it can’t be trusted with our data. - Snoopers’ Charter (Investigatory Powers Act 2016): ISPs must keep a year’s worth of records of which websites you visit. More than 40 agencies—from MI5 to the Welsh Ambulance Service—can request it. MI5 has already broken the rules and kept data it shouldn’t have. - Encry…

The fact is that no government can be trusted because they are not permanent. If a previous government had instituted, the current one would not be rolling it back. The loss of rights is like a ratchet: it only goes one way, click by click.

Re: Britain to introduce compulsory digital ID for workers

#664

Post by Nursie »

jodrellblank wrote: post #631
Nursie wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any of that matters any more, the issue is so firmly in the public eye that Labour need to show that they've solved it whether it's a 'real' problem or not. > unlikely to gain them many Farage supporters Farage is polling ahead of both major parties at the moment. That support came from somewhere. To characterise all of those supporters as only interested in populist bastardry seems a bit of a surface t…

Any ideas how leaving the european convention on human rights, deporting some barbers, takeaway owners and illegal construction workers, and stopping small boats in the English channel will reinvigorate Sunderland, fix South Wales after coal mining stopped, restart British Steel, bring life back to coastal holiday towns in the aftermath of cheap flights to warmer places, fire up the tired overworked Londoner on the c…

Of course it won’t help. Never claimed otherwise. That’s my whole point - while everyone’s lives and the state of the country seem to get worse, people blame the other and look for the person offering them easy answers.

If their lives were looking good, if government services weren’t a mess, and if they perceived the government was actually changing things for the better, reform would have a hard time finding suckers to vote for them.

The small boats issue is enough in the public eye it’s going to have to be tackled. But beyond that, reform need to be beaten by the UK government fixing things and making the UK optimistic about the future, rather than just same-old same-old and the whole place feeling like it’s in managed decline.

Re: Britain to introduce compulsory digital ID for workers

#665

Post by eboynyc32 »

. The UK is in shambles. For 15 years, raw sewage has poured into its rivers unchecked. The government shrugs. Meanwhile, the nation wallows in self-pity about losing “world power” status, yet produces little of note. In the AI race, the space race, the EV race? Nowhere to be found.

Re: Britain to introduce compulsory digital ID for workers

#667

Post by card_zero »

arjie wrote: post #452
amaccuish wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reductio ad absurdum.

Interesting. We could turn it into a logical argument just so we can see if this is the case. The course of the argument is: > Could you explain what is so distasteful about ID cards?" which is roughly how humans say "ID cards are okay" (P0) > I mean if you have a passport then you already have an 'ID card', but I certainly don't want to take that out with me to prove my age. which is roughly how humans say "We alrea…

I suspect this particular human was trying to say "straw man fallacy" but ended up with "reductio ad absurdum" instead, which is pretty much the opposite. If you think the first thing entails the second thing then you've executed a successful absurdum, if you think it doesn't then the second thing is a straw man. These are both annoying ways to wrangle about perceptions.

Re: Britain to introduce compulsory digital ID for workers

#668

Post by JetSetIlly »

Aeolun wrote: post #621
dannyobrien wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the Netherlands may not be the best example to use as a positive example here. Notoriously, the national identity system was used during World War II as a system for discovering and eliminating the Jewish community[1]. The lessons learned from that are a frequent topic of discussion in civil liberties groups, and the Dutch experience is often cited, both global conversations and within the Netherlands -- e.g. On L…

I don’t think the current ID structure has any field for religious or racial history. It’s simply a unique number assigned to a person at birth.

The census form in the UK requires disclosure of religion and ethnicity. It would be relatively easy to merge census data with ID.

I might trust this government not to do that, but I don't trust a future government (because I don't know who that will be).

Re: Britain to introduce compulsory digital ID for workers

#669

Post by kimixa »

randerson wrote: post #601
throwaway150 wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All my immigrant friends are skilled workers who earn more than an average citizen, contribute more taxes and pay exorbitant fees for visa, health surcharge and NIC. I am sure there are immigrants in low paying jobs too. Perhaps we need to talk about different types of immigrants rather than clubbing them all into one "immigrant" category and reinforcing the same tired tropes about immigrants.

This thread is about illegal immigrants. If your friends paid for visas, that would imply they are in a different immigrant category than what we're discussing.

Really "Illegal" immigrants are often a tiny fraction of a tiny fraction - pretty much a rounding error in budgets. But naturally blown up for Politics.

It's not actually particularly nice to live illegally.

Re: Britain to introduce compulsory digital ID for workers

#670

Post by KoolKat23 »

conorflan wrote: post #629
dannyobrien wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the Netherlands may not be the best example to use as a positive example here. Notoriously, the national identity system was used during World War II as a system for discovering and eliminating the Jewish community[1]. The lessons learned from that are a frequent topic of discussion in civil liberties groups, and the Dutch experience is often cited, both global conversations and within the Netherlands -- e.g. On L…

My response as to the difference is the 1998 Good Friday agreement. Something that has already been branded as the Brit Card is simply something that wouldn't work in Northern Ireland, and that the name passed any scrutiny say an awful lot. Ireland is not Britain, and people from Northern Ireland can chose to identify as British, Irish or Both by birthright. A "Brit Card" is not something a significant portion of peo…

You will not need to carry it around with you.

It also seems it'll actually be called Digital ID by the government, this is more a marketing tool, BritCard.

(Just clarifying if it helps, I see some misinformation out there).

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