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Helsinki records zero traffic deaths for full year

helsinkitimes.fi

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Re: Helsinki records zero traffic deaths for full year

#661

Post by j1elo »

projektfu wrote: post #586
j1elo wrote: post #427

I wanted to read opinions about the cost in time that public transport takes, but it hasn't been commented much. Time is precious (albeit not more than a life! that I agree for sure), and you cannot save it for later, so the problem I have with public transport is the enormous loss of time it is for everyone -- unless the planning is almost flawless. So first we had distances effectively "shortened" with the rise of…

Time is precious, so I would rather spend it reading a good book or playing with my daughter on the train for an hour, than driving my car for 45 minutes.

If your daughter lived with her mother and you had the day to spend with her, I bet you'd rather take 90 mins round trip to spend not with her, instead of 180 or more? I mean, it's easy to romantizice anything if you go for the "happy path" like we say when programming.

Both transportation modes have very happy (and also very terrible) paths. I'm just a proponent of keeping the chance of choosing both modes, not killing one of them as it's been the tendency, with always the same happy-path arguments and close-sight scenarios (normally it's people who only think of their own day-to-day needs, like if everyone else should do just a single daily roundtrip for work like they do and for which their metro fits perfectly their single use case)

Re: Helsinki records zero traffic deaths for full year

#662

Post by shmeeed »

rwyinuse wrote: post #533
mmasu wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is it also possible that one of the side effects of this are that people driving recreationally become sometimes exceptionally good at it? see how many great f1/rally pilots Finland has generated. Clearly not good when this happens while drunk tho

Yes, I think it's definitely a factor. Recreational driving is a favorite past-time in the countryside, and due to the forest industry there are lots of dirt roads which are perfect for rally driving, many purpose-built race tracks around the country as well. So the barrier of entry is probably lower than in most places. It's also not too uncommon for kids whose parents own / have access to some land to have some old…

I've been wondering when the inevitable My Summer Car reference would pop up :)

Re: Helsinki records zero traffic deaths for full year

#663

Post by Sesse__ »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #655
Sesse__ wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The kindergartners were cute, they'd all where hi viz overalls on their afternoon walks and be tied together like sled dogs. They're typically not tied together. There's a rope and everybody is told to hold on to it (this makes it a lot less likely that anyone wanders off into traffic). > And I was told even if you were .02 you'd lose your license for a year, and 10% of you salary as a fine. This is only partially…

> Basically what happened when we moved the limit from .05 to .02 is that people stopped having “only one beer” (which is, of course, at risk of becoming three) before driving home. You choose a designated driver or you take public transport. It was a Good Thing. Eww, that's a pretty ugly way to accomplish that. So even if you're actually fine to drive, and it's been quite a while since you had alcohol, you're facing…

You're saying this like “having three drinks, waiting a couple of hours and then driving home” is some sort of obviously reasonable (or even desirable) thing to do.

Re: Helsinki records zero traffic deaths for full year

#664

Post by PaulRobinson »

paffdragon wrote: post #360
PaulRobinson wrote: post #113

I was in Helsinki for work a couple of years ago, walking back to my hotel with some colleagues after a few hours drinking (incredibly expensive, but quite nice), beer. It was around midnight and we happened to come across a very large mobile crane on the pavement blocking our way. As we stepped out (carefully), into the road to go around it, one of my Finnish colleagues started bemoaning that no cones or barriers ha…

Funny, but that was my impression of UK when I first visited (like 20 years ago). Cones, everywhere cones. As opposed to what I was used to in Eastern Europe where people just jumped off a car with shovels in the middle of the crossroads to fill a hole while drivers tried to navigate around them.

Cone are everywhere, but nobody is putting a pedestrian diversion in for anything that takes less than an hour, particularly in the middle of the night.

Re: Helsinki records zero traffic deaths for full year

#665

Post by vintermann »

airspresso wrote: post #361
Taek wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a striking lack of accountability in politics. You don't really need evidence that a policy is going to accomplish it's stated goals, you just need the monkey brain narrative to resonate with voters (and the other elements of the political apparatus)

In the Nordics almost everything that gets passed as law has been thorough studies of impact and consequence first. Takes a long time but means the law has a chance of actually having the intended effect.

Ha, if only!

It's true systematic research on public interventions has historically been valued highly. The Campbell collaboration, Cochrane's sister project dedicated to public policy interventions, is based in Oslo.

But when some politicians wanted to praise and fund "centers of scientific excellence", it overwhelmingly went to the sort of high prestige research you'd expect, like neuroscience and AI. Politicians don't like being told what to do. Especially when the policies with scientific support from controlled studies are unpopular, as they often are (arguably, the study of public interventions against high alcohol consumption was how the Nordic's love of controlled studies in public policy came from).

Even uncontroversial things are decaying. Professor Dan Olweus, through controlled interventions, developed an intervention against bullying in schools in the late eighties. He pushed hard to get them implemented, and pushed back hard against "vibe coded" antisocial behavior prevention programs that didn't have experimental evidence. Bullying went down. But he died in 2020, and guess what, bullying is up again. Keeping government social interventions on the evidence-based path is constant, thankless work.

Re: Helsinki records zero traffic deaths for full year

#666

Post by 2000UltraDeluxe »

pavlov wrote: post #227
rozab wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would guess Finnish deaths are inflated by the rural rallying culture though, hard to compare

Yes, in rural Finland 17-year-old boys who just got their license regularly end up killing themselves and their friends by reckless driving. I believe there is cultural issue with boys’ upbringing. Recently my 8-year-old daughter was spending a week with her mother’s relatives in middle Finland. One day she sent me a picture of an old Volvo in a ditch. “Guess what dad, my cousin drove it off the road and I was in the…

Rural Finnish driving culture is insane, to the extent that drunk driving often is considered socially acceptable, and something every kid does. Luckily, the bulk of the incidents dont involve drivers hurting others.

The country road rally drivers are rarely as bad as busy hatchback-drivers on a main road though. Especially the ones with kids in the back and on their way home during rush hours.

Re: Helsinki records zero traffic deaths for full year

#667

Post by 2000UltraDeluxe »

fabioborellini wrote: post #387
pavlov wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, in rural Finland 17-year-old boys who just got their license regularly end up killing themselves and their friends by reckless driving. I believe there is cultural issue with boys’ upbringing. Recently my 8-year-old daughter was spending a week with her mother’s relatives in middle Finland. One day she sent me a picture of an old Volvo in a ditch. “Guess what dad, my cousin drove it off the road and I was in the…

Finnish rural boys rarely have other personality traits than their favourite car brand. It’s usually BMW or Volvo, and friendships must follow the shared brand following. Someone driving a Nissan Micra should starve to death, according to both camps.

Favourite tractor brand is usually more important, though. :D

Re: Helsinki records zero traffic deaths for full year

#668

Post by Ray20 »

perching_aix wrote: post #634
Ray20 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my understanding, authoritarianism is not only defined by the desire to strengthen their own power, but also by the desire to bring the way of life of all other people in line with their own moral values. For example, the persecution of homosexuals is widely recognized as an authoritarian behavior and has nothing to do with consolidate of authority

> the persecution of homosexuals is widely recognized as an authoritarian behavior I have unfortunately missed out on that then, because I both do not recognize it as authoritarian behavior, nor do I recognize that recognition to be widely established at all. There is a distinct correlation between authoritarian regimes and homosexuals being persecuted that I'm also aware of, but this is absolutely the first time I'v…

> nor do I recognize that recognition to be widely established at all.

> absolutely the first time I've ever heard someone describe the persecution of homosexuals as an authoritarian behavior

Google defines "authoritarian" even more broadly than I do:

> favouring or enforcing strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom.

So I would say that that recognition is established extremely wide.

Re: Helsinki records zero traffic deaths for full year

#669

Post by theluketaylor »

jcgl wrote: post #608
theluketaylor wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

North American fire departments are among the biggest blockers of urban road safety improvements here, demanding huge lanes for huge trucks. Those lanes leave tons of space for other drivers, leaving them feeling safe to speed, resulting in more carnage when pedestrians are hit. Those huge trucks are also all custom built chassis and incredibly expensive. European fire departments using customized versions of off the…

My only familiarity with what you’re saying comes from a Not Just Bikes video. Pretty striking, though I’ve not done any research to corroborate it.

Great example from just this week.

Here in Ontario the province passed a law directing themselves to remove separated bike lanes from Bloor Street, University Avenue, and Avenue Road in Toronto, claiming it would reduce traffic congestion. They are three important surface arteries in and around the downtown core.

A group of cyclists sued the government under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, with the verdict being handed down this week. The cyclists won, though it's far from the end of the story since the government can appeal or invoke the notwithstanding clause.

One of the lone voices who filed court statements in support of the government was a retired Toronto fire captain, who stated without evidence that bike lanes increase both congestion and emergency response times. The judge was not convinced, in part from lack of supporting data, but also because the sitting fire chief said in a public meeting the fire department had not recorded an increase in response times.

Collisions involving cyclists have gone down around 50% on those roads since the lanes went in, despite cycling volume nearly doubling. A retired firefighter still felt compelled to testify it would harm emergency response. Wow.

Re: Helsinki records zero traffic deaths for full year

#670

Post by jcgl »

theluketaylor wrote: post #669
jcgl wrote: post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My only familiarity with what you’re saying comes from a Not Just Bikes video. Pretty striking, though I’ve not done any research to corroborate it.

Great example from just this week. Here in Ontario the province passed a law directing themselves to remove separated bike lanes from Bloor Street, University Avenue, and Avenue Road in Toronto, claiming it would reduce traffic congestion. They are three important surface arteries in and around the downtown core. A group of cyclists sued the government under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, with the verdi…

That is preposterous. Thanks for sharing. Really disappointing to hear that people who presumably care a lot about health and safety can be so blind on this stuff.

I wonder how successful it would be to have a hypothetical campaign like "Create a city-wide emergency roadway network." It would basically result in building out separated bike lanes across a city, with the explicit purpose of creating an expressway for emergency vehicles that can be used by cyclists when otherwise unused. Seems like a way to bring sides together and possibly get greater funding and scope.

That Toronto reality is depressing.

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