Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water • Hacker News Board

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#661

Post by lee_ars » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 12:37 PM UTC

shireboy wrote: post #645

hayst4ck wrote: post #347

Putting fluoride in water promotes freedom. That sounds crazy, but let me justify it. If you are poor you can't go anywhere or buy anything. You're not free if you're poor. If you are sick, you may be confined to a hospital bed or not feel good enough to do anything. If you are sick you're not free. Putting fluoride in water reduces dental costs and incidence of cavities and therefore tooth infections, particularly a…

This take has a few problems: Poor people in the US are capable of using fluoride toothpaste and flossing. At least at homeless shelters at outreach things I’ve been to, toothpaste and toothbrushes are freely available. Your argument hinges on them being incapable on the whole and needing a Benevolent But Superior Intelligence to provide an alternative for them. Second, it completely ignores any debate over effective…

> Second, it completely ignores any debate over effectiveness or side effects. It could well be that fluoride in water is great for teeth but bad for brains.

Except it's not—fluoride in the drinking water concentrations is proven safe and it doesn't affect brains.

> Im not clear the validity of those claims

Thoroughly scientifically debunked. Repeatedly, over decades.

> That seems the core issue- without bias from stakeholders, is the benefit of fluoride proven and the risks disproven? It’s hard to answer because a study needs to span many years and exclude many variables.

No, it's not hard to answer, because all those studies have been done and the results were that fluoride is safe.

> And in general I think that is what needs to happen with these type debates.

What needs to stop happening is people ignoring objective reality just because the results happen to align with the other "team's" position on something.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#662

Post by tonis2 » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 12:41 PM UTC

bambax wrote: post #513

hayst4ck wrote: post #347

Putting fluoride in water promotes freedom. That sounds crazy, but let me justify it. If you are poor you can't go anywhere or buy anything. You're not free if you're poor. If you are sick, you may be confined to a hospital bed or not feel good enough to do anything. If you are sick you're not free. Putting fluoride in water reduces dental costs and incidence of cavities and therefore tooth infections, particularly a…

This is the same reasonning with vaccine (only worse because you can die faster from not being vaccinated than from cavities -- although in some cases they can be lethal too). People who want to be free from government interference should be prevented from using public roads, or public infrastructure of any kind. Want to mail something? Hire a courrier to deliver it for you. Etc.

I should pay 0 taxes then too

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#663

Post by j_maffe » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 12:44 PM UTC

mkoubaa wrote: post #607

j_maffe wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're refuting a statment based on studies and statistics by anecdotal evedince. Also, GP never denied that flouridation is still helpful for non-brushing residents.

A dentist sees thousands of patients -a big sample size! Calling it anecdotal evidence is reductive.

This isn't an opinion or take given by a dentist, it was given by a patient.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#664

Post by ericb » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 12:45 PM UTC

ost-ing wrote: post #536

hayst4ck wrote: post #347

Putting fluoride in water promotes freedom. That sounds crazy, but let me justify it. If you are poor you can't go anywhere or buy anything. You're not free if you're poor. If you are sick, you may be confined to a hospital bed or not feel good enough to do anything. If you are sick you're not free. Putting fluoride in water reduces dental costs and incidence of cavities and therefore tooth infections, particularly a…

Rather than taking choice away, we should be educating people on what the best choice is and letting them make it themselves. Brush your teeth in the morning and in the evening. Standard dental hygiene - If a person can be an obedient worker they can probably brush their teeth twice a day. If they cant, they have bigger problems to sort out.

> educating people on what the best choice is and letting them make it themselves.

If we go that way, we should have some sort of Department, to make sure Of the Education being consistent.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#665

Post by almog » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 12:46 PM UTC

zmgsabst wrote: post #235

christianqchung wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Radioactive isotopes in nuclear fuel: do not ingest. Radioactive isotopes in banana: consume away. Understand now? I'm not even defending anything other than how two things that vaguely appear contradictory, are in fact, not.

I don’t. Because your banana example doesn’t have additives meant to be reactive — so is unlike adding fluoride to water at levels which impact dental health.

Maybe another example will help?

Chlorine for water treatment in the backcountry when applied to a liter of water: Ingest.

Chlorine straight from a household bleach bottle: Do not ingest.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#666

Post by mongol » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 12:49 PM UTC

abrookewood wrote: post #617

belter wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed: "Water Intoxication" - https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/water-intoxic...

There was an infamous death in Australia when a young girl drank too much water after taking MDMA. It's blamed on the drug, but the thing that actually killed her was water intoxication: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Wood_(born_1980)

It happened to a Swedish girl too. Not sure if it was after taking MDMA but it was after drug use.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#667

Post by ryao » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 12:51 PM UTC

jjice wrote: post #618

theGnuMe wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to drink 32 ounces of milk per day to get enough daily calcium.

I was surprised when I realized that milk didn’t have that much calcium by volume, relative to how it was promoted to me as a kid. I found that almond milk had a good bit more by volume and the US dairy industry probably just had some good marketing in the 2000s with the Got Milk campaign.

Too much calcium is a bad thing. I had enormous amounts of milk as a child, a multivitamin containing calcium and a calcium supplement. I probably had 2 to 3 people’s recommended daily amount of calcium per day. Now as an adult, the calcium is in my muscles and it occasionally causes me to feel like my arm has been dislocated from my socket for days whenever there is a flare up. Moving my arm during a flare up makes it worse. It occurs in my dominant arm and the pain is so bad that during flare ups, I sometimes contemplate amputation. There is no cure for this condition. The “get enough calcium” stuff really backfired in my case since I clearly overdosed on calcium because of it. On the bright side, I have excellent bone health.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#668

Post by hayst4ck » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 12:52 PM UTC

shireboy wrote: post #645

hayst4ck wrote: post #347

Putting fluoride in water promotes freedom. That sounds crazy, but let me justify it. If you are poor you can't go anywhere or buy anything. You're not free if you're poor. If you are sick, you may be confined to a hospital bed or not feel good enough to do anything. If you are sick you're not free. Putting fluoride in water reduces dental costs and incidence of cavities and therefore tooth infections, particularly a…

This take has a few problems: Poor people in the US are capable of using fluoride toothpaste and flossing. At least at homeless shelters at outreach things I’ve been to, toothpaste and toothbrushes are freely available. Your argument hinges on them being incapable on the whole and needing a Benevolent But Superior Intelligence to provide an alternative for them. Second, it completely ignores any debate over effective…

Truth and even the idea that there is objective truth is a fundamentally political concept. Authoritarians are opposed to the idea of objective truth because objective truth gives a person a foundation on which to criticize and dissent from those in power. Truth is threatening to authoritarians. Truth is an alternative source of legitimacy.

We are experiencing an assault on objective truth in the US in order to get scientific institutions to submit to political authority rather than the authority of reason.

So I agree with you, it is policy that should not be handled by politicians but by experts, which none of us are. Unfortunately science is being politicized.

The problem is science challenges those who derive power from means other than reason.

Defending scientific consensus is seen as an equally political act as denying it.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#669

Post by hilbert42 » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 12:53 PM UTC

aziaziazi wrote: post #643

hilbert42 wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then, you'd also be against adding folate/folic acid to bread for the same reason? For those who don't know many countries including the US mandate the inclusion of folic acid in bread and certain other foods to ensure pregnant women get enough. A deficiency of folic acid during pregnancy causes birth defects in infants. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folate

I never heard of that supplement (not a father) and was very surprised to find 80 countries mandate it. I checked the list (below) and it turns out the 80 countries are a bunch of poor nations plus USA, UAE, Qatar, Canada and Australia. I guess our medicare system supports the EU mothers fine enough so we don’t need to put that in the staple of food. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5809909/ (Table 1)

It would be interesting to know why EU countries chose not to mandate it. Also, I wonder if EU flour millers/producers add it voluntarily, and whether flour produced in Canada destined for EU markets leaves out the folate that's mandated for inclusion in the Canadian market.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#670

Post by themgt » Sun, Mar 30, 2025, 12:56 PM UTC

lee_ars wrote: post #661

shireboy wrote: post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This take has a few problems: Poor people in the US are capable of using fluoride toothpaste and flossing. At least at homeless shelters at outreach things I’ve been to, toothpaste and toothbrushes are freely available. Your argument hinges on them being incapable on the whole and needing a Benevolent But Superior Intelligence to provide an alternative for them. Second, it completely ignores any debate over effective…

> Second, it completely ignores any debate over effectiveness or side effects. It could well be that fluoride in water is great for teeth but bad for brains. Except it's not—fluoride in the drinking water concentrations is proven safe and it doesn't affect brains. > Im not clear the validity of those claims Thoroughly scientifically debunked. Repeatedly, over decades. > That seems the core issue- without bias from st…

What needs to stop happening is people ignoring objective reality just because the results happen to align with the other "team's" position on something.

"Out of a population of about three-quarters of a billion, under 14 million people (approximately 2%) in Europe receive artificially-fluoridated water."

The problem I continually see in the USA is the ascription of differences of opinion on [any topic] to America's Great Divide between enlightenment and barbarism. I find it often helpful to just check, what do these policies look like outside of America? It doesn't mean Europe got it right on fluoride, it just suggests against adopting the framing that your POV is 100% objective reality proven beyond doubt by Science™ and no rational person not in the throes of "own the [other team]" bad faith might disagree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_by_country#...