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OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

ft.com

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Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#661

Post by pertymcpert »

el_cujo wrote: post #647
joe_the_user wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Deepseek trained off OpenAI, then it wasn't trained from scratch for "pennies on the dollar" If OpenAI trained on the intellectual property of others, maybe it wasn't the creativity breakthrough people claim? Oppositely If you say ChatGPT was trained on "whatever data was available", and you say Deepseek was trained "whatever data was available", then they sound pretty equivalent. All the rough consensus language…

I'm not an OpenAI apologist and don't like what they've done with other people's intellectual property but I think that's kind of a false equivalency. OpenAI's GPT 3.5/4 was a big leap forward in the technology in terms of functionality. DeepSeek-r1 isn't really a huge step forward in output, it's mostly comparable to existing models, one thing that is really cool about it is it being able to be trained from scratch…

Not just the training cost, the inference cost is a fraction of o1.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#664

Post by visarga »

sho_hn wrote: post #73
bbqfog wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenAI's models were also trained on billions of dollars of "free" labor that produced the content that it was trained on.

Oh, absolutely. I'm not defending OpenAI, I just care about accurate reporting. Even on HN - even in this thread - you see people who came away with the conclusion that DeepSeek did something while "cutting cost by 27x". But that's a bit like saying that by painting a a bare wall green you have demonstrated that you can build green walls 27x cheaper, ignoring the cost of building the wall in the first place. Smarter…

> that's a bit like saying that by painting a a bare wall green you have demonstrated that you can build green walls 27x cheaper, ignoring the cost of building the wall in the first place

That's a funny analogy, but in reality DeepSeek did reinforcement learning to generate chain of thought, which was used in the end to finetune LLMs. The RL model was called DeepSeek-R1-Zero, while the SFT model is DeepSeek-R1.

They might have boostrapped the Zero model with some demonstrations.

> DeepSeek-R1-Zero struggles with challenges like poor readability, and language mixing. To make reasoning processes more readable and share them with the open community, we explore DeepSeek-R1, a method that utilizes RL with human-friendly cold-start data.

> Unlike DeepSeek-R1-Zero, to prevent the early unstable cold start phase of RL training from the base model, for DeepSeek-R1 we construct and collect a small amount of long CoT data to fine-tune the model as the initial RL actor. To collect such data, we have explored several approaches: using few-shot prompting with a long CoT as an example, directly prompting models to generate detailed answers with reflection and verification, gathering DeepSeek-R1Zero outputs in a readable format, and refining the results through post-processing by human annotators.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#665

Post by brianstrimp »

ComputerGuru wrote: post #583
Imnimo wrote: post #320

I think there's two different things going on here: "DeepSeek trained on our outputs and that's not fair because those outputs are ours, and you shouldn't take other peoples' data!" This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data in the first place - by scraping other peoples' data off the internet. "DeepSeek trained on our outputs, and so their claims of replicating…

The suggestion that any large-scale AI model research today isn’t ingesting output of its predecessors is laughable. Even if they didn’t directly, intentionally use o1 output (and they didn’t claim they didn’t, so far as I know), AI slop is everywhere. We passed peak original content years ago. Everything is tainted and everything should be understand in that context.

> We passed peak original content years ago.

In relative terms, that's obviously and most definitely true.

In absolute terms, that's obviously and most definitely false.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#666

Post by HotHotLava »

sangnoir wrote: post #606
worik wrote: post #431

[flagged]

> Banned in the USA. Only. The US government has the wherewithal to drag Europe along with it, like they did with Huawei's 5G equipment.

Used to. If they're going to start a trade war, pull out of NATO and invade Greenland instead, there'll not be much soft power left to drag Europe anywhere.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#668

Post by brianstrimp »

dns_snek wrote: post #630
me_me_me wrote: post #616

[flagged]

[flagged]

I work in a field with lots of cheap microchips. I can tell you that the amount of counterfeit copies flooding in from China as well as the speed in which they are copying is truly breathtaking.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#669

Post by boringg »

bilekas wrote: post #95

> “It’s also extremely hard to rally a big talented research team to charge a new hill in the fog together,” he added. “This is the key to driving progress forward.” Well I think DeepSeek releasing it open source and on an MIT license will rally the big talent. The open sourcing of a new technology has always driven progress in the past. The last paragraph too is where OpenAi seems to be focusing their efforts.. > we…

Explain to me how one ban's opensource? That concept is foreign to me.
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