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Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

reuters.com

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Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#661

Post by DiscourseFan »

istjohn wrote: post #399
DiscourseFan wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but Hezbollah and Hamas caused enough grievances on their own. They were violent, far-right, Iran-backed terrorists that suppressed any sort of grassroots self-organization. Isreal wanted them there, they were easy to control, easy to use as an excuse to do whatever they pleased. I doubt the youth of Gaza or Lebanon are stupid enough to fall for the same trick twice.

I doubt the Palestinian people are going to just sit and watch Israel slowly usurp what remains of their homeland. It's never a good idea to underestimate the price a people are willing to pay for their freedom. The French learned that in Algeria, the British in Ireland, and the US in Veitnam.

The unfortunate truth is that, compared to Hamas, arabs are more free under Israeli rule. Its a terrible trick, but creating a despotic enemy, making yourselves out to be the land of reason and civilization, its all part of their game plan.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#662

Post by raxxor »

gravisultra wrote: post #296
boringg wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this is a good development. Everything in this part of the world is on a rinse snd repeat cycle ever since the Assyrians and the Babylonians - it hasn't changed much except maybe its actually a little more humane then it was in the past (which says something). Sorry for the cynical take but this just does a temporary stop.

That's not true at all. The current conflict isn't some thousand year old feud. It was very much caused by the deliberate provocation and importation of European settlers via Zionism. It's easy to wave our hands and say "it's so complicated!" or "they've been doing this for thousands of years!" but it's not complicated, much like apartheid South Africa, Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were not complicated. Colonialis…

That is wrong. There were conflicts before, the Hebron massacre (1929) for example. There was an Arab nationalism and the Mufti of Jerusalem met with Hitler and planned a middle-eastern Holocaust.

Also, Jews were expelled from surrounding nations when Israel was founded, even more than Palestinians were driven from what now is Israel. There never was any compensation or talk about their right to return and these are not Jews with European ancestry.

Frankly, I think not a single statement of yours is true.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#663

Post by throw310822 »

klipt wrote: post #570
throw310822 wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would be nice to see people let go of past injustices on both sides long enough to have a lasting peace It's not past injustices. Israel is occupying, annexing and settling more land now . It's not some tit-for-tat between neighbours over past wrongs, it's one neighbour that is chasing away the other to take their house.

A lot of Israelis literally had their (or their parents') homes stolen by Iraqis, Egyptians, Moroccans. In total, Mizrahi Jews had land around 4x the size of Israel stolen from them (and they still have the deeds to prove it). A peace treaty can't truly be comprehensive until they get reparations for that injustice.

What is the connection here?

Are you saying that somehow there is a transitive property between Palestinians and Iraqis or Moroccans so that if a Moroccan steals a house then you can have your right revenge on a Palestinian? And why not on a Swede or a Thai?

Or are you saying that it was all right for Israelis to have their houses stolen then- since it is all right for them to steal houses now, it's just how it goes? I don't get it.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#664

Post by wesselbindt »

nearbuy wrote: post #341
wesselbindt wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By conservative estimates (see the 2024 Khatlib paper in the Lancet), roughly 7--9% of the population of Gaza will perish as a result of the actions of Israel on the strip. Many more will flee. According to UN, clearing the rubble in Gaza will take 15 years. That's just clearing the rubble, not rebuilding the damaged buildings, which is about 66% of the total. There are some clear indications that the intention of th…

This makes no sense to me. If 8% (171,000 people) of Gaza were to perish, that would leave Gaza with the population it had in 2020. The ceasefire reportedly will have Israel pulling out from Gaza fully and a massive influx of humanitarian aid is expected to enter Gaza. If the ceasefire goes through, the death rate will drop greatly and the population will begin to grow again. As horrible as the destruction has been,…

> If genocide was a goal of any of the Israeli leadership, they abjectly failed

This take is incredibly callous. Suppose 8% of everyone you gets killed. This is a shockingly brutal thing to happen to a population. Aside from that you're wrong on a factual level. The "in part" part of the '51 convention is there precisely so people don't say "there's still Jews left so technically the Holocaust wasn't a genocide". The holocaust was a genocide, and this is a genocide (yes, "is", they're still dropping bombs on a population half of which is under 18). There's a reason the relevant cases haven't been thrown out of the ICJ and ICC.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#666

Post by GordonS »

jraby3 wrote: post #459
hedora wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you proposing the deal could be made more fair? Keep in mind: Israel killed 100x more civilians than Palestine during this conflict, and more damage was done to Gaza than any European city during wwii. 90% of the population is displaced. 10% are casualties. Israel intentionally blew up all the civil infrastructure (hospitals, doctors, engineers) first. There are > 17,000 children that have no adults to care f…

It could be made more fair if all the hostages were released. Why would international society accept hundreds of peaceful civilians being tortured, raped and murdered for over a year as acceptable? Israel actually built a lot of the civilian infrastructure, including the largest hospital in Gaza. It's pretty clear those places are being used as terrorist hideouts and to launch rocket attacks. Why is it acceptable to…

> hundreds of peaceful civilians being tortured, taped and murdered

There is no absolute evidence that any of Hamas' hostages have been raped or tortured - according to released hostages, they were treated very well! AFAIK the only known instance of Hamas murdering a hostage was when a fighter lost it after Israel killed his entire family - all the other deaths have been a result of Israeli bombs (because if you want hostages back, you bomb them... right?!).

And as you doubtless know, many of the "peaceful civilians" are actually serving IDF members...

And as you also doubtless know, Palestinian hostages are routinely raped and tortured to death in Israeli dungeons - there is a wealth of evidence.

> It's pretty clear those places are being used as terrorist hideouts and to launch rocket attacks.

This is what Israeli Hasbara do - repeat unevidenced claims until people accept them as "truth". But it's lies, there isn't a shred of evidence that Hamas as used even a single hospital as a "terrorist hideout". You know who has repurposed Gazan hospitals for military ops? Israel - every accusation is a confession with them.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#667

Post by forgotoldacc »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #530
slt2021 wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the difference between terrorists and freedom fighters is temporal. Yesterday they were called terrorists by the mainstream, tomorrow when they win they will be hailed as heroes and freedom fighters. the zionists were also called terrorists by the UK in the beginning, especially when they bombed king david hotel

> the difference between terrorists and freedom fighters is temporal No, it isn’t. Very few revolutions ( i.e power inversions) have succeeded by indiscriminately killing the dominant side’s civilians. That frequency, moreover, goes down over time.

Using just fairly recent examples, Russia and China's communist revolutions were notably brutal and had no problem with harming civilians. They won.

North Korea and North Vietnam (now just Vietnam) were also brutal against the other side. Both of them are running their own countries.

To go a bit more recent, the Taliban was behind a bunch of terrorist attacks. They now run Afghanistan.

To be fair, though, North Korea and Afghanistan have basically no allies in any sense due to their behavior. And the people who fought against North Vietnam and lost were just as savage as them. But Vietnam and China are happily traded with, and nobody outside of old folks in America think anything bad about Vietnam these days. If anything, a lot of people think it was unjustified to have ever fought against them.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#669

Post by southernplaces7 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #644
southernplaces7 wrote: post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And never mind that Israel still has a fundamentalist, authoritarian government that is actively at work undermining democratic structures and civil rights even inside the state As opposed to the neighboring states (and Hamas), which mostly have religiously tolerant, fully democratic governments that fully respect civil rights, and which of course have never openly stated that they want Israel to disappear from exis…

The further we are from a people, the more we tend to group them into monoliths. As monoliths, both sides are monsters, with the best one can argue being that one side's monstrosity is justified. Break them down further and you can find the actual monsters--those self-interestedly seeking either their own aims, or, some random aim at any cost, even when the aim is impossible and its costs massive.

What the hell does your statement have to do with the very real, practical natures of the governments and political organizations of neighboring countries and lined up against Israel through a number of ideological arguments?

I'm not talking about monoliths on either side. I'm specifically referring to states in the region with authoritarian and even despotic governments with exactly the traits that the comment I originally responded to claims about Israel.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#670

Post by fldskfjdslkfj »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #621
reissbaker wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plurality of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi (aka, Jews who never left the Middle East), at 45% of the population [1]. This isn't about Europeans, or even "race": Mizrahi Jews and their Palestinian neighbors are racially indistinguishable. Ashkenazi Jews — that is, Jews who lived in Europe during the Diaspora — make up less than a third of Israeli Jews. [2] Although if you're dead-set on racial essentialism and blood-an…

It's not about race, but it is about the invention of a country that relies on specific demographics to exist (majority Jewish) which necessitate keeping millions of people stateless yet under the full control of an elite ethnicity who actually have the votes and the control. And no matter where Jewish people are from, they are that privileged ethnicity. The Arabs in Israel get token rights (but you and I both know i…

> The Arabs in Israel get token rights.

That's just false. The Arab minority in Israel has right to vote, the right to establish political parties, freedom of expression, freedom of association, free press, religious autonomy, separate educational systems, legal rights, etc.

Yes there are differences, but claiming that Arab israelis only receive "token rights" is a far cry from the truth. Of course this doesn't mean theres' no racism, but that's a different issue.

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