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US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove TikTok from stores Jan. 19

reuters.com

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Re: US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove TikTok from stores Jan. 19

#661

Post by mattmaroon »

bdangubic wrote: post #545
mattmaroon wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re thinking in binary terms about a gradient.

freedom being gradient sounds a lot like part of a speech of a dictator :)

It’s a spectrum. Some places are more free than others, and we’re as far toward the free end of the spectrum as anyone unless you count places where the government has totally collapsed. I suppose there are anarchies somewhere but they’re never stable.

You can say “land of the free my ass” every time a law prevents you from doing something you want, but that doesn’t mean other places have more freedom.

Re: US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove TikTok from stores Jan. 19

#662

Post by EasyMark »

close04 wrote: post #604
gradus_ad wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China and the US are in a deepening cold war. Our political systems are fundamentally opposed so conflict is inevitable (given there is no higher authority to manage our relations). If you are looking for some specific justification for a ban, you're missing the forest for the trees.

> Our political systems The rift has nothing to do with the political system (e.g. the US is freely and openly allied with Saudi Arabia despite radically different political systems), and everything to do with the competition for power and influence in the world. SA is not a real contender there, China is. From here the rift and inevitable conflict. > If you are looking for some specific justification for a ban, you'…

You forgot it's mostly about Chinese Communist Party influence (or eventual influence) if they get firmly entrenched in the public mindset of the USA. No nation political apparatus should have such a large direct (actual or potential) influence into the minds of the US public. It's a national security risk of the highest priority. Not every security risk is saber-rattling or direct cybersecurity threats. it's one thing if citizens look up and pursue the CCP's philosophies, but this is about stopping the direct injection of said propaganda straight into our toddlers, teens, and tweens brain. They shouldn't have to suffer because of some absolutists take on the first amendment, when we have various limits for the public good all over the place.

Re: US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove TikTok from stores Jan. 19

#663

Post by EasyMark »

AnonymousPlanet wrote: post #535
professor_v wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do we ensure that Tiktok doesn't covertly alter the algorithm to subtly include propaganda tailored to China's geopolitical interests that are detrimental to the US? Or even just propaganda tailored to enhance internal strife to weaken the country?

As a European I have to ask the very same questions about US apps and European interests. Even though I personally do not harbour strong suspicions towards the US, it's not a given that the US will always act favourably towards the EU, Europe as a whole, or any one particular EU country in the future. Especially in light of recent elections.

As a US citizen I would support your right to limit facebook/twitter/etc exposure to your citizens, especially with the incoming administration. That's why I think it's also appropriate for the US to oppose a adversarial government injecting propaganda here, especially to our most vulnerable to it.

Re: US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove TikTok from stores Jan. 19

#664

Post by EasyMark »

mu53 wrote: post #648
Workaccount2 wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joe Biden cannot call up facebook and tell them to show everyone on Instagram ponies tomorrow. However, if Xi Jinping calls up Bytedance and tells them to show everyone ponies tomorrow, your tiktok feed will infact be all ponies tomorrow.

The revelations from the twitter files show that this is true. Social media works in tandem with US Federal Agencies to review what people see or don't.

and checks and balances allowed it to eventually come out, even though i think facebook knew they could fight it in court. In China that is not an option, Xi and his circle say is what happens with no recourse other than a straight up rebellion by the people of China.

Re: US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove TikTok from stores Jan. 19

#665

Post by marcellus23 »

makeitdouble wrote: post #625
siva7 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like the “Year of Linux” fantasies 20-30 years ago. No, people won’t learn about side-loading much like they didn’t care to try out linux instead of windows. They will simply use a competitor app.

The better comparison would be people buying gaming PC when Apple declared war on NVidia and shunned PC gaming in general. Did Windows and linux PC sales rise ? Well yes, to some decent extent: https://www.pcgamer.com/gaming-industry/2023-pc-games-revenu...

That article discusses videogame sales, nothing about hardware. Mac game sales would be included in the "PC game sales" statistic. I'm also not sure when "Apple declared war on NVidia and shunned PC gaming in general"? If anything they've been getting more friendly to gaming recently.

Re: US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove TikTok from stores Jan. 19

#666

Post by EasyMark »

baranul wrote: post #633
AnonymousPlanet wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a European I have to ask the very same questions about US apps and European interests. Even though I personally do not harbour strong suspicions towards the US, it's not a given that the US will always act favourably towards the EU, Europe as a whole, or any one particular EU country in the future. Especially in light of recent elections.

Good observation and argument. US politicians might be in for a rude surprise, if this effort to ban boomerangs on them, in the form of other countries making the same arguments and wanting to ban popular American made and controlled software.

I think this is a positive. We should be happy other countries reducing the tentacle lengths of US social media vorps (or Chinese social media like tiktok)

Re: US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove TikTok from stores Jan. 19

#667

Post by EasyMark »

api wrote: post #482
flkenosad wrote: post #459

I really hate how people are arguing that it should be banned because of the content being inappropriate in one way or another when the content you see is based on how you interact with the app. We don't all see the same stuff. So yeah China may have more educational content but that's probably just becuase the people there are interested in that stuff. When I travel to the mountains, I get more outdoorsy/hiking vide…

This is really naive. These algorithms can be and are tuned to manipulate the audience. That being said, it’s not fair to single out TikTok. They all do it. The only unique danger with TikTok is that it could be controlled by a foreign adversary, or at least could be more easily than the others.

It is fair to isolate TikTok becaues it is controlled by an adversarial world power. That's a lot different than facebook/instagram/etc pumping out addictive engagement tripe, which I think should have some serious limits on age availability using them, but that is an adjacent topic and not on the same level as a foreign power using the same techniques. The US government is giving them an out, which is to sell to a friendly foreign nation's company or to a US company, if TikTok won't take them up on it then it's time to cut them off.

Re: US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove TikTok from stores Jan. 19

#668

Post by kweingar »

ltbarcly3 wrote: post #560
ludston wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it's the lack of black and whiteness that makes me so confused as to why you would brand the government of a 1 billion person nation as an enemy rather than say, a competitor or even an ally that behaves in occasionally intolerable ways. Kind of like how a lot of nations continue to be allies with a nation that goes around invading other nations and deposing legitimately elected governments in the interest of or…

Name one single other country that we trade with that has an official policy that it owns another country we trade with, and insists that if we say out loud the other country is a country it means immediate war?

Taiwan has an official policy that it owns the mainland

Re: US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove TikTok from stores Jan. 19

#669

Post by no_exit »

kelnos wrote: post #291
suraci wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's funny - There's a Chinese-controlled brainworm which is more harmful than a US-operated brainworm - How you know this - The US-operated brainworm told me * and why use '-controlled' vs '-operated', I'm not a native English speeker and I'm very curious about it

I'm so tired of arguments like this. They seem ill-informed at best, actively bad-faith at worst. The US government has faults. A lot of them. And I (a US citizen) can't claim to be perfectly objective and unbiased. But I don't think you're going to be able to convince me that I should prefer Chinese propaganda and election interference over US propaganda. Or that US propaganda is as effective and all-encompassing wi…

> Or that US propaganda is as effective and all-encompassing within US borders as Chinese propaganda is within Chinese borders.

Totally right! Now let me log off to catch the nightly 6 hour programming block of CIA/FBI/military dramas. It helps me forget about all those scary Chinese drones flying around. Oh and did you see the trailer for the latest Alex Garland movie about our brave soldiers in Iraq? True heroes!

Re: US lawmakers tell Apple, Google to be ready to remove TikTok from stores Jan. 19

#670

Post by tgma »

betaby wrote: post #646
tgma wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it is speculation, then it can be dismissed since it has no basis in reality. This line has no basis in logic actually.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

Russell’s teapot is not a logical proposition as to what’s true and what is not. It is philosophizing about burden of proof in a low information context in a debate. It is a persuasion tactic, an exercise in philosophy, not at all a logical proposition.

Also its context (religious belief in a deity) is not at all like a scenario where a history of adversarial motives are established. There would be reason to believe the adversary would do certain things if they could, simply because the incentive is so strong and their history of behavior suggests that.

Simply the line that was suggested “there is no backdoor until we find one” is logically self-defeating. The logical proposition of the existence of backdoor cannot be a function of us finding one or not. You can discuss what the policy should be as a risk analysis question, not as a logical “there is no backdoor” from Iraqi Information Officer meme template.

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