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Netflix buffering issues: Boxing fans complain about Jake Paul vs. Mike Tyson

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Re: Netflix buffering issues: Boxing fans complain about Jake Paul vs. Mike Tyson

#661

Post by akira2501 »

dylan604 wrote: post #481
ironhaven wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you live stream the superbowl? Me and everyone I know watch it over antenna broadcast tv. I think it is easier to have millions of tvs catch airwaves vs millions of point to point https video streams.

If you watch it over cable, you're live streaming it. Let's face it, that's where the vast majority of viewers see it. Few people view OTA even if the quality is better. Live sports do not broadcast the event directly to a streamer. They push it to their broadcast centers. It then gets distributed from there to whatever avenues it needs to go. Trying to push a live IP stream directly from the remote live venue rarely…

> If you watch it over cable, you're live streaming it.

Those are multicast feeds.

> Trying to push a live IP stream directly from the remote live venue rarely works as expected.

In my experience it almost always works as expected. We have highly specialized codecs and equipment for this. The stream is actively managed with feedback from the receiver so parameters can be adjusted for best performance on the fly. Redundant connections and multiple backhauls are all handled automatically.

> That's precisely why the broadcasters/networks do not do it that way

We use fixed point links and satellite where possible because we own the whole pipe. It's less coordination and effort to setup and you can hit venues and remotes where fixed infrastructure is difficult or impossible to install.

Re: Netflix buffering issues: Boxing fans complain about Jake Paul vs. Mike Tyson

#662

Post by unoti »

mbrumlow wrote: post #559
softwaredoug wrote: post #495

The way to deal with this is to constantly do live events, and actually build organizational muscle. Not these massive one off events in an area the tech team has no experience in.

I have this argument a lot in tech. We should always be doing (the thing we want to do) Somme examples that always get me in trouble (or at least big heated conversations) 1. Always be building: It does not matter if code was not changed, or there has been no PRs or whatever, build it. Something in your org or infra has likely changed. My argument is "I would rather have a build failure on software that is already re…

> 1. Always be building: It does not matter if code was not changed...

> 2. Always be releasing...

A good argument for this is security. Whatever libraries/dependencies you have, unpin the versions, and have good unit tests. Security vulnerabilities that are getting fixed upstream must be released. You cannot fix and remove those vulnerabilities unless you are doing regular releases. This in turn also implies having good unit tests, so you can do these builds and releases with a lower probability of releasing something broken. It also implies strong monitoring and metrics, so you can be the first to know when something breaks.

Re: Netflix buffering issues: Boxing fans complain about Jake Paul vs. Mike Tyson

#663

Post by akira2501 »

bostik wrote: post #575
diggan wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People just do not appreciate how many gotchas can pop up doing anything live. Sure thing, but also, how much resources do you think Netflix threw on this event? If organizations like FOSSDEM and CCC can do live events (although with way smaller viewership) across the globe without major hiccups on (relatively) tiny budgets and smaller infrastructure overall, how could Netflix not?

The CCC video crew has its fair share of geeks from broadcasting corporations and studio houses. Their combined institutional knowledge about live events and streaming distribution is probably in the same ballpark as that of giant global TV networks. They also have the benefit of having practiced their craft at the CCC events for more than a decade. Twice a year. (Their summer event is smaller but still fairly well k…

> Their combined institutional knowledge about live events and streaming distribution

Now if they could just get audio levels and compression figured out.

Re: Netflix buffering issues: Boxing fans complain about Jake Paul vs. Mike Tyson

#664

Post by [deleted] »

lxgr wrote: post #649
skybrian wrote: post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing dry runs regularly makes sense, but whether actually shipping it makes sense seems context-dependent. It depends on how much you can minimize the side effects of shipping a release. Consider publishing a new version of a library: you'd be bumping the version number all the time and invalidating caches, causing downstream rebuilds, for little reason. Or if clients are lazy about updating, any two clients would b…

It's very hard to do a representative dry run when the most likely potential points of failure are highly load-dependent. You can try and predict everything that'll happen in production, but if you have nothing to extrapolate from, e.g. because this is your very first large live event, the chances of getting that right are almost zero. And you can't easily import that knowledge either, because your system might have…

[deleted]

Re: Netflix buffering issues: Boxing fans complain about Jake Paul vs. Mike Tyson

#665

Post by TheAceOfHearts »

crazygringo wrote: post #558
TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't Netflix's first foray into livestreaming. They tried a livestream last year for a reunion episode of one of their reality TV shows which encountered similar issues [0]. Netflix already has a contract to livestream a football event on Christmas, so it'll be interesting to see if their engineers are able to get anything done in a little over a month. These failures reflect very poorly on Netflix leadership.…

> But we all know that leadership is never held accountable for their failures. You've never heard of a CEO or other C-suite or VP getting fired? It most definitely happens. On the other hand, people at every level make mistakes, and it's preferable that they learn from them rather than be fired, if at all possible.

Accountability can take many forms. I don't think they should be fired for making a mistake, I think they should release a statement recognizing their failure along with a post-mortem. Not a particularly high bar, but most leadership failures are often swept under the rug without any public accountability or evidence that they've learned anything.

We have evidence of prior failures with livestreaming from Netflix. Were the same people responsible for that failure or do we have evidence of them having learned anything between events? If anything, I'd expect the best leaders would have a track record that includes failures while showcasing their ability to overcome and learn from those mistakes. But based on what information is publicly available, this doesn't seem to be the case in this situation.

Re: Netflix buffering issues: Boxing fans complain about Jake Paul vs. Mike Tyson

#667

Post by namaria »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #494
_fat_santa wrote: post #427

When you step back and look at the situation, it's not hard to see why Netflix dropped the ball here. Here's now I see it (not affiliated with Netflix, pure speculation): - Months ago, the "higher ups" at Netflix struck a deal to stream the fight on Netflix. The exec that signed the deal was probably over the moon because it would get Netflix into a brand new space and bring in large audience numbers. Along the way t…

Livestreaming is a solved problem. This sounds like NIH [1]. (At the very least, hire them as a back-up.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here

"Solved" merely means you don't need to invent something new to solve it. It doesn't mean trivial nor easy. And it definitely doesn't mean the problem is above trade-offs.

Re: Netflix buffering issues: Boxing fans complain about Jake Paul vs. Mike Tyson

#668

Post by namaria »

moralestapia wrote: post #541
talldayo wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is. You can hire the people who have solved it to do it for you. "GPGPU compute is a solved problem if you buy Nvidia hardware" type comment

>"GPGPU compute is a solved problem if you buy Nvidia hardware" Which is valid? If your problem can be solved by writing a check, then it's the easiest problem to have on the planet. Netflix didn't have to put out 3 PhD dissertations on how to improve the SOTA of live streaming, they only needed to reliably broadcast a fight for a couple hours. That is a solved problem. Amazon and Cloudflare do that for you as a serv…

Landing on Mars is a solved problem. Nuclear bombs are a solved problem. Doesn't mean anyone can just write a check and get it done and definitely doesn't mean any business model can bear that cost.

Re: Netflix buffering issues: Boxing fans complain about Jake Paul vs. Mike Tyson

#669

Post by manquer »

mmooss wrote: post #551
ajdude wrote: post #409

It wasn't even just buffering issues, the feed would just stop and never start again until I paused it and then clicked "watch live" with the remote. It was really bad. My Dad has always been a fan of boxing so I came over to watch the whole thing with him. He has his giant inflatable screen and a projector that we hooked up in the front lawn to watch it, But everything kept buffering. We figured it was the Wi-Fi so…

> My Dad has always been a fan of boxing What did your Dad think about the 'boxing'?

Commercial boxing has always been like WWE or MMA with a thin veneer of actual sport to it, i.e. it is just entertainment[1].

To rephrase your question then what does someone think of the entertainment on display?

I don't think it was good entertainment.

None of the hallmarks of a good show was present. i.e. It wasn't close, nor was it bloody or anything unexpected like say a KO everything went pretty much as expected. It wasn't nice watch as all,no skill or talent was on disply, all Paul had to do was use his speed to backpedal from the slow weak punches of a visibly older tyson with a bum knee and land some points occasionally to win.

--

[1] There is a deeper argument here is any spectator sports just entertainment or is truly about skill talent and competition. Boxing however including the ones promoted by traditional four major associations falls clearly on the entertainment side than say another sport like NFL to me.

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