Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla • Hacker News Board

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#661

Post by woooooo » Tue, Sep 03, 2024, 10:15 PM UTC

frogblast wrote: post #633

bastawhiz wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> police can obtain a search warrant, then you can be compelled to provide the video, or they can seize any device (such as entire computer, your server closet, etc) that could reasonably contain the video. Yes but the police can't start occupying my house or deny me access to it because I wasn't home to let them in.

> Yes but the police can't start occupying my house or deny me access to it because I wasn't home to let them in With a search warrant, they can. You can be kept out of your home until they complete the search and seizing of the items named in the warrant. Depending on what is being searched for (excavating your basement looking for bodies?) that could take quite some time. So the Tesla situation getting press isn't…

Taking your frickin car is new.

A judge made a decision that past jurisprudence applies to towing cars that happen to have cameras nearby, nobody was doing it until that first warrant got signed.

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#662

Post by frumper » Tue, Sep 03, 2024, 10:20 PM UTC

jamesy0ung wrote: post #640

Hopefully Tesla implements encryption for the drive used, just to make it harder for the police department. This is stupid and it punishes the owner for happening to accidentally park their vehicle near a suspected crime.

That sounds like it would just slow the process of returning the vehicle.

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#663

Post by dpifke » Tue, Sep 03, 2024, 10:21 PM UTC

protimewaster wrote: post #626

Suppafly wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>1 - vehicle wasn't involved and was about to be towed for footage as the article implies Which is definitely something that shouldn't happen and is a violation of constitutional rights.

I agree that it shouldn't happen, and it feels like it should be unconstitutional. I'm wondering if it actually is unconstitutional, though. If they got a warrant to seize the vehicle, for example, it seems like it's probably constitutional. I think?

There's probably a takings clause argument that the police should be required to reimburse the owner for reasonable expenses from the temporary loss of use of their vehicle.

Edit: cursory Googling turned up an old law journal article about this exact subject that lays out the arguments for and against: https://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1... (PDF) I don't know how the law has evolved since it was written.

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#664

Post by orwin » Tue, Sep 03, 2024, 10:47 PM UTC

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #645

I_am_uncreative wrote: post #643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many cases, you're obligated to not record people in public without their permission. That's the norm, for example, in Sweden, apparently.

Do people really get permission though? Like what if you’re in some crowded area - for example taking photos of some landmark? You’re not going to be able to conceivably chase down 10+ people and get their permissions. I imagine most people just record whatever they do and upload it to their social media.

So basically in France, but i think this is from EU directives (directives are not laws, just "please we want to have at least this implemented in your country" but any country can ignore them if they want):

- you can't record public places without being present (police is excluded, but private shop owners not, hence you can't have camera filing anything other than the inside of your shop)

- You can't record children in any way without their explicit consent and, if they're younger than YY (i don't remember), their parent consent, if they can be identified. Anyway, you can't publish any record where a child can be recognized without explicit consent (you have to blur them even if you post it on a private group in social media ideally) (not 100% sure about that, i think you have at least 3 laws that intersect here)

- You can record adults in public places. You cannot post your recording without explicit consent (blur them when in doubt).

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#665

Post by dzhiurgis » Wed, Sep 04, 2024, 12:24 AM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #644

frogblast wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The drive is inside the car. How do they get at it, and guarantee it isn't tampered with in the meantime?

They have Tesla (the company) unlock the car, then remove the drive. They already have the search warrant, which could compel Tesla to assist. They have a cop babysit the car until the seizure is completed, like they have to do anyway.

Sorry, but towing is much easier than dealing with Tesla's lawyers.

But Tesla should add remote wipe too, just like with iPhones.

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#666

Post by ghaff » Wed, Sep 04, 2024, 1:25 AM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #581

ghaff wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the US population is urban per the census bureau but a lot of that is spread out suburbs and exurbs. I’m “urban” between many acres of orchards and conservation land. Depending on third party transportation day to day would be utterly impractical.

In a typical suburb, providing a 2-3 minute wait would require one idling self-driving car per hundreds of houses. I think that sounds practical.

That will work well when one or two people in most of those houses are commuting, dropping kids at school, and/or running errands at about the same time. /s I fully expect that autonomous vehicles at some point will marginally expand the ranks of people who are marginal car owners and will just effectively taxi. But if you have daily use that Uber/taxis doesn't solve, regularly use a personal car to drive places, have your vehicle configured for things like care seats for kids, etc. you'll do without full autonomy in favor of presumably improved automation in your personal vehicle.

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#667

Post by K0balt » Wed, Sep 04, 2024, 1:54 AM UTC

righthand wrote: post #547

K0balt wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s remarkable how many people seem to think that drones are fair game. Also, thank you for a kind and thoughtful comment you made to me in the past. It’s heartening to be reminded that civil decency is alive and well. I hope you have a memorable and fruitful day.

It hasn’t been proven that drones aren’t fair game. So go ahead and down vote me for noticing this, but just because the FAA says the airspace is for any aircraft doesn’t mean I can’t shoot down your drone on my property in rural Nebraska and get away with it. It will be on the feds to pursue a low level crime not worth their time. Until it’s proven you can’t shoot down a spy drone, then you can shoot down a spy dron…

The FAA will -absolutely- charge you with a federal crime if the attack on aircraft infrastructure is reported to them.

Now, presumably, someone flying a drone that would actually report such a thing would also be following the relevant FAA regulations regarding being a licensed pilot and operating within the legal framework of drone operations, and they would likely also have video evidence making it easy to prosecute the felon in question.

The FAA takes drone operations with equal seriousness as private aircraft operations, and drones and pilots must be licensed by the FAA unless they weigh under 250 grams.

It was the Wild West. It’s not anymore. FAA inspectors are notoriously bored and will pursue any case they think they can win, especially when it comes to actions against aviation infrastructure.

If you fly a drone illegally you can face federal fines up to $75000. But shooting one down is an actual federal crime punishable by up to 20 years imprisonment and very punitive fines.

Now under 250 grams (and unregistered)? Idk if the FAA would get involved. But the drone owner might take you to small claims court, and assuming they were operating within the law you would very likely lose.

But if it’s got an N-Number and you shoot it down, I would prepare to get my door knocked down. Its like the ATF, It’s not so much a matter of how much they care, it’s more a matter of asserting their jurisdiction and control. It’s an easy win against someone who used a firearm to destroy a federally registered aircraft.

But, IANAL, if you decide to try it out let me know how that goes for you.

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#668

Post by K0balt » Wed, Sep 04, 2024, 1:55 AM UTC

righthand wrote: post #548

K0balt wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drones are legally classified as aircraft. 18 U.S. Code § 32 makes it specifically illegal to damage or interfere with the operation of aircraft. The FAA takes this quite seriously, as not taking it seriously compromises their position of being able to regulate drones per se. Lax enforcement of protection of drones as aircraft is a potential legal argument that efforts to regulate drone activity outside of the scope…

So you agree, I can shoot down a drone over my property and make an argument to get away with it and there isn’t enough legal reason or capital to pursue. There may come a day where I would get in trouble but I think right now spies are smart enough not to mass surveil with drones.

Not sure where you get that, but enjoy.

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#669

Post by Dylan16807 » Wed, Sep 04, 2024, 2:36 AM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #666

Dylan16807 wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a typical suburb, providing a 2-3 minute wait would require one idling self-driving car per hundreds of houses. I think that sounds practical.

That will work well when one or two people in most of those houses are commuting, dropping kids at school, and/or running errands at about the same time. /s I fully expect that autonomous vehicles at some point will marginally expand the ranks of people who are marginal car owners and will just effectively taxi. But if you have daily use that Uber/taxis doesn't solve, regularly use a personal car to drive places, hav…

> That will work well when one or two people in most of those houses are commuting, dropping kids at school, and/or running errands at about the same time. /s

I don't really understand what you're arguing here.

At most, doing that with self-driving cars would require the same number of cars that already exist. Right?

That's good enough for me to put it in the "practical" category. What's your standard for "practical"?

But more realistically, even at peak use there's a lot of cars sitting there not moving. Make some do taxi work and you can cut numbers significantly.

> I fully expect that autonomous vehicles at some point will marginally expand the ranks of people who are marginal car owners and will just effectively taxi.

Not just them, it can displace a lot of second and third cars even when it's barely touching primary cars.

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#670

Post by bastawhiz » Wed, Sep 04, 2024, 2:42 AM UTC

frogblast wrote: post #633

bastawhiz wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> police can obtain a search warrant, then you can be compelled to provide the video, or they can seize any device (such as entire computer, your server closet, etc) that could reasonably contain the video. Yes but the police can't start occupying my house or deny me access to it because I wasn't home to let them in.

> Yes but the police can't start occupying my house or deny me access to it because I wasn't home to let them in With a search warrant, they can. You can be kept out of your home until they complete the search and seizing of the items named in the warrant. Depending on what is being searched for (excavating your basement looking for bodies?) that could take quite some time. So the Tesla situation getting press isn't…

The difference is that when the police are done, my house is still in the same spot. In this case, my car is gone. The police aren't going to put it back.