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Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

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Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#661

Post by jillesvangurp »

danans wrote: post #8

A big issue right now is the oversizing of heat pumps by HVAC contractors who are used to sizing gas furnaces using very simple btu/hr/sqft calculations. A contractor should do some kind of heating need analysis, at the least by studying old utility bills, and ideally by doing a Manual J heat loss calculation for the house. But almost none of them do that. There are some startups attempting to handle these design ste…

It's a big topic everywhere. A lot of early adopters of heat pumps end up with relatively expensive and inefficient solutions because the people that install them barely know what they are doing. There's a lot of demand for heat pumps so most people doing the installation work are very new to this. The good news is that they are probably learning from their mistakes and gaining a lot of knowledge. The bad news is of course that a lot of people are getting a bit of a bad deal.

Things will improve in a few years but until then you really need to be careful with making sure you get the right stuff installed properly by the right people for the right price.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#662

Post by pfdietz »

letitbeirie wrote: post #605
smcleod wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Natural gas won’t stay cheap. It was cheap here in Australia 10 years ago and now it’s so expensive no one can afford to run gas heating and it’s only going up. Now (thankfully) the government has banned the installation of new gas heating and a lot of people are getting rid of gas cooking, hot water heating etc… it’s for the best.

Depends where you are. In the US natural gas is a byproduct of shale oil extraction and we have a limited capacity to move or export it so it's almost priced as a waste product. It's unlikely that electricity will be any cheaper than gas soon either, since that's where 40% (and growing, as our coal and nuclear fleet are retired) of our electricity comes from.

Most US natural gas production is from "dry" wells without petroleum production.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#663

Post by malfist »

bongodongobob wrote: post #582
gmerc wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Essentially: We will only accept climate change action if it’s not degrading our standard of living which is predicated on consuming unsustainably. The end.

Yeah, people should freeze or die of heat stroke. Tell me more about your frictionless spherical world.

Maybe I missed the point, but I don't see anything in GPs post that indicates they want people to freeze or die of heat stroke. Or suggest anything that would lead to folks freezing or dying from heat stroke.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#664

Post by pie_flavor »

No. As technologically cool as electrification is, the power occasionally goes out. When that happens, the heat should not. Not everyone has access to a generator, but gas lines don't need that. Same reason we don't electrify toilet flushing despite potential water savings.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#665

Post by mmcwilliams »

bagels wrote: post #222
subsubzero wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly enough, That list of states besides Colorado and Maine all were the biggest losers of population in 2023, meaning people are leaving these states. - California -0.9 - Maryland -0.5 - Massachusetts -0.6 - New Jersey -0.5 - New York -1.1 - Oregon -0.1 - Rhode Island -0.3

What are the units?

It would appear to be percentage of population.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#666

Post by jabart »

bagels wrote: post #214
mdasen wrote: post #174

One of the big problems with heat pumps in New England is that our electricity costs 1.7x the US average ( https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph... ). If you're in the South, a heat pump makes perfect sense. You're going to want AC anyway and it'll be way more efficient and save a ton of money when you want heat. In most of the country, even if it gets cold your electricity prices are still a t…

Right, the heat pump will reduce energy use to maybe 1/3 of a gas furnace, but natural gas is something like 6x cheaper for the same amount of energy, so it is an expensive folly. If California is serious about this, they need to reign in the utilities to reduce prices and or stop the attacks on solar installation.

Natural gas may be cheap but the cost of the meter and other admin fees cost about as much as the gas.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#667

Post by saalweachter »

pie_flavor wrote: post #664

No. As technologically cool as electrification is, the power occasionally goes out. When that happens, the heat should not. Not everyone has access to a generator, but gas lines don't need that. Same reason we don't electrify toilet flushing despite potential water savings.

Oil burners and gas furnaces also use electricity, to modulate the fire and circulate the heat. The only thing they don't use electricity for is generating the heat. In a power outage it just sits there, not able to turn on.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#668

Post by rr808 »

mdasen wrote: post #174

One of the big problems with heat pumps in New England is that our electricity costs 1.7x the US average ( https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph... ). If you're in the South, a heat pump makes perfect sense. You're going to want AC anyway and it'll be way more efficient and save a ton of money when you want heat. In most of the country, even if it gets cold your electricity prices are still a t…

> less efficient as it gets to zero fahrenheit

Here in NJ there aren't any days like that any more. Its like heat pumps wouldn't be great in the old days but in today's new climate they're great.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#669

Post by xbmcuser »

letitbeirie wrote: post #605
smcleod wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Natural gas won’t stay cheap. It was cheap here in Australia 10 years ago and now it’s so expensive no one can afford to run gas heating and it’s only going up. Now (thankfully) the government has banned the installation of new gas heating and a lot of people are getting rid of gas cooking, hot water heating etc… it’s for the best.

Depends where you are. In the US natural gas is a byproduct of shale oil extraction and we have a limited capacity to move or export it so it's almost priced as a waste product. It's unlikely that electricity will be any cheaper than gas soon either, since that's where 40% (and growing, as our coal and nuclear fleet are retired) of our electricity comes from.

Today solar electricity is already cheaper than natural gas and by 2030-31 solar and wind electricity cost will be 1/4 to 1/8 of today's prices looking at the avg 10% cost decline we are seeing. The advantage of natural gas being cheaper than solar was 4-5 years ago now it's no longer the case. Natural gas advantage now is of having being able to produce electricity when needed but as battery storage prices drop it will also be priced out from that market in many places with solar and wind availablity.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#670

Post by [deleted] »

Areading314 wrote: post #406
bagels wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, the heat pump will reduce energy use to maybe 1/3 of a gas furnace, but natural gas is something like 6x cheaper for the same amount of energy, so it is an expensive folly. If California is serious about this, they need to reign in the utilities to reduce prices and or stop the attacks on solar installation.

Solar isn't a useful source of energy for heating in California, since the demand is almost entirely during winter mornings/evenings where the sun is down.

[deleted]
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