'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture • Hacker News Board

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#661

Post by ashirusnw » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 12:24 AM UTC

covercash wrote: post #582

edanm wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the rockets being fired into Israel is one threat, but the far greater threat is just Hamas repeating the October 7th invasion again. They've said, numerous times, that they will do it - invade Israel again and again, killing as many Israelis as they can. (Leaders have also said they will kill Jews anywhere in the world, btw.) If Israel doesn't take out Hamas, it is entirely unclear if it will be able to prev…

You can’t take out Hamas with military force unless you eliminate every Palestinian in Gaza. “Hamas” is just the current name for oppressed people pushed to their limits who are using the scraps at their disposal to fight back against decades of abuse. So long as there is an apartheid state there will be people who fight back with whatever they can get their hands on, no matter what they call themselves. Israel has a…

Israelis don't view them as less than human, that's ridiculous and refuted by numerous polls and surveys of Israeli society. Israeli Arabs are represented in the knesset and have equal rights to any Israeli citizens. (Although in places like East Jerusalem which is neither Israeli nor West Bank, they are treated halfway in terms of security restrictions or building rights, which is where most of the accusations of discrimination come from.)

Hamas are not freedom fighters of oppression. They are an implacable anti-semitic bloodthirsty terrorist group who murder and oppress Palestinians as well as Israelis.

The true resolution is for Palestinians to give up on the idea of destroying Israel proper and cease the non-stop attacks on Jews from 1929 until today, which in turn will result in no need to monitor and control against these constant threats on Israeli lives. Hamas killed Bedouin Arabs on October 7th too.

Even according to the way you wish to view the conflict, after the 2005 disengagement from Gaza, what excuse did Hamas have to commit murders of Israeli civilians?

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#662

Post by dang » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 12:26 AM UTC

aluminum96 wrote: post #644

Al Jazeera is an exceptionally disreputable source for coverage on this particular issue. It's not just their primary source of funding -- the Qatari state -- but also their abhorrent track record of running stories with no factual basis (such as in the wake of the Al-Ahli incident). I can't point to anything specifically incorrect about this reporting. But you have to take a lot of primary-source-based reporting on…

On HN, we've always gone by article quality, not site quality: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so....

Having a HN thread about an article does not imply endorsement of everything, or even anything, on the site.

In my experience, it's a mistake to make reliability judgements about major sources (such as news organizations) at site scope. To pick an unrelated example, we often get criticisms when HN has a thread about a Daily Mail link, but occasionally a good (for HN) article does appear there; and of course many bad (for HN) articles appear there too. If you don't like that example, substitute any other major source—they all have a mixture of good and bad articles, good and bad information. It's therefore important to make finer-grained distinctions about these things—e.g. article scope rather than site scope.

This is one of those cases where it's super helpful to have a single principle that one is optimizing for: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... – the moderation strategy I just outlined is derived from it.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#663

Post by nvm0n2 » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 12:27 AM UTC

xg15 wrote: post #576

nvm0n2 wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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> The UN doesn't speak for the world, regardless of what they may claim. That might be true for Guterres but not for the GA. The delegations that voted were not directed by the UN but by their respective countries. No one forced them to vote for this. Israel itself gets its legitimacy from the UN resolution in 1949. > But why would anyone ask them to cease fire against an enemy that won't return the favour? My unders…

> so of course during such a ceasefire Hamas would have to stop the rocket attacks as well.

But it is an absurd request, like calling for a ceasefire between Britain and Germany at the height of World War 2. Like "legitimacy" and "international law", the concept makes no sense when thought about clearly.

It is war. Wars end with a believable long term peace, most commonly due to the absolute destruction of one side's ability to fight. A peace is meant to be lasting, which means people have to believe in its durability. But there is no way to believe it in the case of Hamas short of a complete Israeli victory (i.e. occupation and total disarmament), because they have demonstrated that they are always engaged in preparation for the next attack. Any pause in the fighting would obviously only be temporary and adopted for military advantage.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#664

Post by tmnvix » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 12:27 AM UTC

davesque wrote: post #587

beeboobaa wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's that supposed bias?

You know what? I went searching just now for examples that I thought could support my argument. But I honestly couldn't find any that really seemed unambiguous or like they couldn't be interpreted in another way. And the ones I had in mind didn't seem like they clearly were arguing for one side of things when I looked at them a second time. So yeah...going to have to walk that particular claim back it seems. But I st…

I appreciate your good faith here.

I'd just like to add that this highlights an issue that comes up again and again in highly charged topics: impressions so easily overshadow facts and many people put a lot of effort into propagating impressions to the point that they become accepted and commented on as if they are facts.

Ironically (given your original comment), you are exactly the type of person whose thoughts on this topic I would like to hear and the presence of people like you is why I do appreciate that some allowance for this topic has been made. That said, I know that it is a balancing act and I wouldn't like HN to become more tilted toward general politics.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#665

Post by rayiner » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 12:27 AM UTC

ido wrote: post #237

Plenty of Palestinians oppose Hamas and want peace and a free Palestinian state according to the '67 borders. These would be the equivalents on the other side.

What exactly is their conception of the Jewish state that exists within those borders? Something that exists until the next time the Arabs try to wipe Israel off the map?

How do you think the 1967 borders became the current borders? Egypt shut down Israel’s access to the Red Sea and massed troops on Israel’s border. Then Jordan and Iraq sent troops. And then Israel kicked everybody’s ass and occupied the Sinai, the Gaza Strip (which had been occupied by Egypt) and the West Bank (which had been annexed by Jordan).

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#666

Post by monocasa » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 12:29 AM UTC

bluescrn wrote: post #73

Meanwhile, Egypt seems to get a free pass, minimal criticism for keeping its border locked down while being adjacent to a terrible conflict? They could at least let the most vulnerable/sick/injured flee.

For one, yes Egypt is complicit in the situation of Gaza. They're paid ~$1.5B/yr by the US in defense aid that's contingent on them playing nice with Israeli defense policy which is mainly seen day to day in the Egyptian enforcement of the Gazan blockade.

On top of that though, it's not clear the humanitarian solution is opening that border. With many high level Israeli officials calling for Gaza to be ethnically cleansed, encouraging an evacuation from land that the Gazans might not be allowed back on to could be viewed in hindsight as assisting a crime against humanity.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#667

Post by vore » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 12:29 AM UTC

davesque wrote: post #410

It's really disappointing to see so many exceptions to the no politics rule right when we need that rule the most. There really isn't anything to be gained by discussing stories like this. We all know that atrocities are taking place. It's a war zone. A̶l̶s̶o̶,̶ ̶i̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶ ̶g̶l̶a̶r̶i̶n̶g̶l̶y̶ ̶ ̶b̶a̶d̶ ̶l̶o̶o̶k̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶r̶t̶i̶c̶l̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶c̶e̶n̶t̶l̶y̶ ̶b̶e̶e̶n̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶o̶w̶e̶d̶ ̶…

There is no "no politics" rule. There is only a discouragement about posting uninteresting politics.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#668

Post by hbt » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 12:29 AM UTC

ashirusnw wrote: post #641

kurthr wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's interesting to believe that Israel can effectively and permanently take out Hamas (and the like), while they cannot prevent October 7th. Either they have sufficient intelligence/surveillance or they don't. The last "election" in 2006 was the year after a majority of the population of Gaza was born (median age 18), and politically, it seems Netanyahu prefers Hamas to any less radical representation, becau…

[flagged]

look at a map of the west bank and tell me more about those massive peace efforts.

if living under a blockade or under military occupation is your idea of peace, no wonder people are resisting.

Israel is not interested in peace, they're interested in submission.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#669

Post by nico » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 12:30 AM UTC

h3rsko wrote: post #612

nico wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Gaza is the agressor Sure, if you completely ignore any previous history and the fact that Israel was created by stealing Palestinians’ land From the other side, you could say Palestinians have never stopped defending themselves This is not war, this is a brutal genocidal occupation that started many years ago and that Israel is trying to “complete” now by forcefully displacing all Palestinians The end goal seems t…

Israel was not created by "stealing Palestinian land." "Palestinians have never stopped defending themselves." Do you mean when they explode suicide vests and shoot rockets at cities? Is that what you call defending themselves? "genocidal occupation..." I find it hilarious that people can say a population with some of the highest growth on the planet is at the same time suffering a genocide. "The end goal seems to be…

Please explain how the state of Israel magically appeared in its current location without taking any land from anyone

Please explain how the 2023 and the 2005 governments are the same

And also please explain why the definition of genocide has absolutely no references to population size or growth, yet you keep bringing it up to justify what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#670

Post by nradov » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 12:30 AM UTC

boppo1 wrote: post #631

nradov wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israelis can potentially vote out Netanyahu in the next election. But how exactly would you propose to remove Hamas from power without a lot of civilian deaths? Hamas leadership prefers the current state of affairs because it has made them wealthy by taxing the populace and embezzling foreign aid. They have no incentive to agree to a peace deal or allow new multiparty elections. There doesn't appear to be any realist…

Is there any way Israel could undermine Hamas with prosperity? Make the lives of palestinians better, give back settlements, etc? Get average palestinians to think "wtf who are these terrorist asshats, Israel is a good neighbor."

Israel should stop expanding settlements. Those only make a final peace deal harder to achieve. But that won't solve the Hamas problem. Hamas leaders don't care what average Gazans think nor will they voluntarily give up power. Prosperous Gazans already have to pay Hamas protection money, so more prosperity in Gaza means more resources flowing to Hamas to buy weapons.