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"Lighten up"

therealkatie.net

661–670 of 829 posts

Re: "Lighten up"

#661

Being an ex-queer (bi ;) I've had to put up with my fair share of subtle jabs and general discomfort with my presence. After a long time I figured out that the only thing that worked for me was to be more dominant than 'them.' The thing is, women (and queers) are fucking powerful, they're just powerful in a different way. Ironically, but not unsurprisingly, women are taught not to use this power as it's 'inappropriat…

I have to disagree. I've had to manage a team of around 40 people who compete nationally (not tech per se, but I believe the same applies in a work place), and it only takes one person with the behaviour you describe to completely wreck how everyone operates and gets along.

We went from a tight knit, supportive group to being watchful of what we say, wondering who's out to get us and generally having to "watch our backs". Loyalties were split, motives were changed and within a matter of weeks it was an incredibly poisonous atmosphere.

If you want to get ahead - be better than those you're competing against. Don't try to undermine them, it does get noticed and unfortunately - for a small personal gain you're causing a hell lot more damage without even realising.

Re: "Lighten up"

#662
post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one tiny facet of a society-wide problem that goes back millennia. How much progress can you expect in a few years? In the broader scope of things, I'd say we're making great progress. But that progress has come through continuous effort, not from people saying, "Oh, honey, you should just accept that you can't vote. You'll never change it, so it's not rational to try."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whig_history

I differ with that line of thought in that I don't think it's inevitable. Which is why I think it's so important to push for it. As the US Republican primary shows, there are plenty of people who'd like to roll back things from decades to centuries.

Re: "Lighten up"

#663
Honestly speaking I am surprised by the quantity of comments, especially the ones on sexism and similar stuff (how to dress, what to cook, etc). Usually, this is an indicator of one big underlying problem, therefore I assume that it is a problem in the US.

At least, this is how the author positions the situation and her individual case.

But..... in reality, at least based on what I observed in the multinational companies, where I worked, such behavior usually surfaces in three cases.

(1) The person does not understand how organizational dynamics and people/power play works, i.e. does not know the rules of the game.

(2) The person is not a good performer, or at least this is how colleagues perceive her or (for god sake) him.

(3) The corporate environment and culture OR the boss are negative - in this case most employees are treated like that.

Based on my personal experience:-

In case of (3) the best advice is to run - find another company that would value this particular individual strengths. There are plenty of companies out there. The life is not worth it to spend it on converting jerks to mother Theresa.

In case of (2) the best advice is to "make yourself so good, that they can't ignore you" [I do not recall that exact wording]. I seriously doubt that a valuable employee [i.e. she/he is the only one who can fix things with positive/negative impact on P&L] would be mistreated. In case she would be, than probably this is the case (3) - the company/boss does not understand the employee's value ---> same advice as above - run. I recall two cases - female HR assistant and male Director of Strategy. The former was just dumb, and the latter was bullshitting his way around. In both cases gender had nothing to do with the fact that both had nothing to bring to the table. So the consensus of high-producing crowd (both female and male) was unanimous.

Usually, if a person is an excellent performer, these things (negative comments, stupid microtasks, etc) just do not appear or do not stick.

In case of (1) the best advice is to find a mentor (gender not relevant), who could teach or coach on how to behave oneself in a group or organization, so called organizational behavior or simply politics. It is difficult to summarize it, but the goal is to learn how to diffuse negative behavior towards you with humor, words or actions immediately at the point of action in such a way that everybody present would think that the one who initiated negative behavior is a jerk (or dumb, or idiot, or an asshole) without you calling names.

For example a comment from colleague

can be rubuffed with

"Oop, John's got his socks smelling today! I know where I shall not be sitting" or smth similar with a big smile.

The simple view and approach is to perceive such people as programs with bugs. To resolve the bug you need to understand how the whole piece is working and what's inside. Therefore, you need to understand each individual, what's inside, what are the bugs and how to approach/address them. Each one is unique and shall be dealt with as such.

Another approach is to start with yourself - how you perceive yourself and own self-confidence.

I agree with OneBytePerGreen that the author shall "lighten up". I do not recall the exact term, but the author perceives that the external environment is what controls her behavior and outcomes. Such view does not faciliate personal growth, or any growth per se. The only way to change is to understand simple fact that behavior of others is defined by your own behavior and start with yourself, because that's the only one a human being can change.

On a side note I especially disagree with one of the comments:

Acting like that is keeping the real issue under the table and unresolved. The real issue is the person's view of the world and lack of knowledge and understanding of how things work in life. A good boss or co-worker would teach or coach the person how to to deal with that.

Apologies for my English and, possibly, tone. My first real post on NH, so I might have missed some 'untold' rules.

Re: "Lighten up"

#664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your very well thought out reply. To a certain degree what you are saying is very much true. What you are forgetting however is that if you go further back in time men were hunters and women were gatherers. Women stayed around the camp and were free to chat and men went off to hunt and had to be silent. I'm trying to make the point that part of this is probably genetically/hormonally engrained into the fem…

Nah, I'd have to see some serious cross-cultural research to believe that the "girl's game" is a universal, as would anyone who's had a whiff of anthropology at any point in their education. Also, speaking as a bisexual myself, I'm kind of offended by your characterization of bisexuals, unless by "bisexual" you mean "intersexed" or "transgender" or something, which in itself is actually just as offensive. Being queer…

I know I can only offer anecdotal evidence; I had no intentions of positing this as a well-researched fact.

And you're right on the second part as well. Although I am bisexual, the term for what I'm referring to would be 'genderqueer' if I'm correct.

Re: "Lighten up"

#665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're correct that the best solution is to increase the number of women in technology. However, as members of that community today, you and I and our male friends can call out the creepy dudes making inappropriate remarks 100% of the time we hear them. Creating an environment where people feel comfortable doesn't have to mean getting rid of all bad actors; it can be enough to make it clear that bad actors ar…

Creeps are a part of every industry; they are more aptly described as "Bullies" - and can be both male and female (though I admit the male, sexist, bully is very prevalent in our industry). These people tend not to just be sexist; they bully their male workers as well - crude remarks for example, put downs, superior attitudes. I once had a female (client) lean over the desk to me, with a low cut blouse, and say "My c…

I completely agree, such behavior is not gender related. But males are trending higher, usually because the percentage of male bosses is higher. Social status and power tend to release some inner devils.

Also agree about side comments - it is not easy to stop those. That's why it is important to understand each of those individuals and find a way to deal with each one. No need to be a hardass to the person, just need to punish specific actions.

Re: "Lighten up"

#666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the "so what" is everything: Unwanted Attention is Unwanted because it embraces some sort of threat or menace or unreasonable expectation or social tension or unease. To say that we should stop giving women this sort of unwanted attention is not whining or rationalizing, nor is it fanatical egalitarianism. It's just demanding a culture where we men know that it's dangerous to control, frightening to objectify,…

Today I learned: "I owned you at " is a slavery metaphor. It was always just something I said. Now I know, and therefore probably can't say it anymore...

Though it is my example, I would add that I don't think that it started out as a slavery-of-others metaphor.

So, before there was "pwned" there was "ownership." You "owned at the game" rather than "owning the other players." The ownership was to entitle that your mastery of the game was so complete that you transcended mere "participation" in the game and instead cultivated "belonging."

Unfortunately, etymology is something of a footnote in real life.

Re: "Lighten up"

#667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think there's a conflict between sexism and fun? As in, "Well, I'd like to stop making sexist jokes, but then it would be so boring here." I would rather work in an office where the jokes are of the funny sort, rather than the makes-one-person-feel-miserable sort. I really don't think there's any overlap between funny jokes and sexist jokes.

There's definitely an overlap between funny jokes and 'sexual' jokes. The OP seems to have a hair trigger for 'sexist,' to the point where I suspect her co-workers weren't sad to see her leave.

I don't think that the examples given in the blog post are examples of a "hair trigger." For one, it's repeated behavior; even a small annoyance is worse when repeated for years.

If I were one of her male coworkers, and I had to watch that kind of behavior continually, I would quit. I want my coworkers to be able to do their jobs without being tormented.

Also, I think you're missing the distinction between sexual jokes and sexist jokes. There are plenty of funny sexual jokes. There are even plenty of sexist jokes that the joke-teller finds funny. That opinion is not shared by the butt of the joke, and that makes them crappy jokes.

Re: "Lighten up"

#668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Via google: Girl: A young or relatively young woman A young woman of a specified kind or having a specified job - a career girl Women who mix socially or belong to a particular group, team, or profession - I look forward to having lunch with the girls Perhaps this is a language issue, but it's just as common for me to call my male friends 'boys' as my female friends 'girls', even though all are adults. Not sure what…

If you're calling any female co-workers "girls" in conversations at or about the workplace, you're doing it wrong. There is a long history of society downplaying women's contributions in the workforce by using cutesy terms like "girls", and some of the definitions you've cited here reflect that. But just because a term like "career girl" was once in wide use doesn't mean that it's still appropriate today. (Or for tha…

I guess the words I use are closer to guys/gals then boys/girls then, except that it's used commonly the language (as opposed to gal in english, which is fairly rare - at least from my experience).

Re: "Lighten up"

#669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Argh, I knew I shouldn't have used a broad description of male behavior and narrow one of the female. The male equivalent of what I described here would be when two managers shouting against each other in ever stronger terms that they are more important and have more authority than the other until one backs down. Equally destructive I believe, but something you'd never see a woman engage in.

I think you're writing these comments with the best intentions but also that you should probably stop digging.

You're probably right. I tried to get a positive message across (i.e. 'Embrace your femininity to your advantage.')

I ended up sounding vindictive though, probably because I am at some level.

It's hard to publicly talk about this and even harder to find the right constructive tone between the indignation, anger and resentment that (for me) have accompanied my non-standard gender identity.

And even though I don't know what to make of the large number of downvotes, I'm still glad I tried. :)

Re: "Lighten up"

#670
post #11

It's a big deal. Not "lightening up" is a service to the company (and, I guess, the whole industry). I'm married to a woman who has put up with a lot of shit in this field (for instance: job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; I was, fortunately for all involved, in a different state when that happened) and am the father of an absurdly intelligent 10 year old girl who will, with…

What would have been the appropriate response to the picture? Can someone give me a pattern to work with here?

edit: I haven't run into sexism yet (still a student, but a female in a male-dominated field) and I don't want to be the deer in the headlights when it happens for the first time. And it seems that it will happen, the way everyone talks about it.

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