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Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

electrek.co

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Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#661

Post by filoleg »

ux-app wrote: post #649
caf wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A useful way to think about it is to shift your view from "can I do X?" to "will I bother anyone else by doing X?". I don't think that's particularly useful, because the answer to the second is trivially Yes, regardless of the value of X.

>the answer to the second is trivially Yes, regardless of the value of X then don't do it?

Your response to "by that metric, essentially almost everything is disallowed" is "well yeah, just don't do it". I don't think that stance would sit well with most.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#662

Post by filoleg »

greenthrow wrote: post #578
nobleach wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, CarPlay is a "premium" feature on a BMW?

On older models. Current models come with it.

Current ones instead charge you a recurring subscription for seat heating, right?

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#663

Post by filoleg »

acer589 wrote: post #572
littlestymaar wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect the actual physical hardware modification line is the one that most users are going to be unwilling to cross unless they are in the "Download a Car" crowd. Idk, hardware modification of the first Playstation that allowed to play ripped games became mainstream very quickly in my country (France) and you could even go to some shops that sold Playstations to get it done. It only stopped when it was made open…

Okay, but in that PlayStation example you DIDN'T pay for the games, but still decided to 'do what you want'. How is that legitimate but attempting to prevent it not?

Because you also prevent legitimate uses of such "feature", such as playing games you purchased legitimately from other regions, as that "feature" also allows to defeat region-locking. As for why not just buy those same game versions released in your region, some games were just never released in some regions. Another common use is running legitimate homebrew software.

So logically, it isn't modding/unlocking the console itself that's illegitimate. But it can be used for certain illegitimate actions, yes (along with legitimate ones).

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#665

Post by kortilla »

kelnos wrote: post #396
kbos87 wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ongoing costs aside, it’s important to also recognize that there may have been massive up-front costs to develop something like self-driving before it generates revenue, which the manufacturer should have the right to recoup/monetize. If they choose to do that through a subscription, that feels like it’s within their right.

Customers are not responsible for the company's business model. I'm fine paying for software. And I'm fine with a subscription model if I actually get new things periodically during my subscription. Put another way, if you sell me a static, unchanging piece of software (like a software update to enable heated seats), then that should be a one-time charge. If you sell me a self-driving package that gets regular update…

> But I should not have to pay for an update that fixes safety issues with existing functionality.

“I want free updates”

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#666

Post by chefandy »

oatmeal1 wrote: post #537
chefandy wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are pushing back against the idea that you can't do whatever you want with a physical thing that you own. You own the heating mechanism in the seats, you own the hardware needed to turn them on, and you own the computer which activates it. If Toyota sold me a car with heated seat mechanisms installed and no switch, they couldn't stop me from installing my own switch. That you might not be able to do what you w…

The thing is, in the long run it doesn't matter whether you are legally allowed to install your own switch. The price manufacturers charge for a car will adjust based on whether they can get revenue from subscriptions or not. If they can't successfully charge subscriptions, base car prices will go up.

This could stand in as justification for any odious pricing practice. "Sure, they sneak cocktails onto their customers's bills, but if they didn't do that, they would have just charged them more for their dinner, so it doesn't matter."

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#667

Post by hot_gril »

femto wrote: post #566
hot_gril wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's pretty shocking to me that people in our society build things and then deliberately break them so they can make more money. Is this really the best system we can come up with? All part of cost tradeoffs. Previously, they'd build the car with the ability to support all those add-ons even if the customer isn't getting them. Turns out it's cheaper not to do that.

Being a tradeoff it works both ways. Customers get broken add-ons for free if it's cheaper to not pursue the customers that fix them.

Yeah, same with how I watch YouTube ad-free for free.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#668

Post by chaps »

ddalex wrote: post #216
vessenes wrote: post #47

Pretty sophisticated attack vector: low voltage attack on AMD secure execution environment during boot. I wonder how many tries you need to get whatever bits you need in the right place. Also, I imagine you only need to cut 12V wires to do this, but I admire the willingness to get in there direct on these systems. I'd be a little nervous to make those cuts personally. Buried in the article is the claim that this will…

> you could anonymize your location on Tesla's servers I already anonymise my location on Tesla's servers by simply not owning a Tesla

What kind of car do you have? Your car almost definitely shares its gps location to the manufacturer and downstream data brokers.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#669

Post by zootboy »

chaps wrote: post #668
ddalex wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you could anonymize your location on Tesla's servers I already anonymise my location on Tesla's servers by simply not owning a Tesla

What kind of car do you have? Your car almost definitely shares its gps location to the manufacturer and downstream data brokers.

Lol, not my 2005 Toyota. It doesn't even have anti-lock brakes, much less a GPS phone-home system.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#670

Post by hunter2_ »

bri3d wrote: post #407
mgiampapa wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like we used to have cable box guys willing to sell you an unlocked box for premium channels, we are eventually going to have feature unlock guys that you go do and for a small fee perform some slightly more technical hack to enable features that are already there.

This has already been the case on European navigation systems (Audi and VW MMI/MIB) for many years now. VW Audi Group developed an entire infrastructure called SWaP (Software as a Product) and FEC (Feature Enable Codes) many years ago, and ever since, there has been a cottage industry in bypassing the system to enable features like CarPlay, Navigation, and Performance Monitor which are usually locked by software trim…

It's always awesome seeing your comments about VW stuff. I've been using VCDS over 10 years now with nothing but various trims of Golfs for even longer than that. Luckily my Mk7 R came with all the FECs I'd ever want, stock! The secret menu doesn't show anything interesting in the diff between supported and installed.

Do you think there will ever be ECU/TCU tunes maintained as open source projects? Maybe not quite as user-friendly as the Cobb ecosystem and the like, but good enough to make $600+ tunes a thing of the past for DIY types who are into mucking about but want the peace of mind that comes with using maps that enough other people are already using? Not that tuners shouldn't be paid for their work, but I feel like they could focus on the custom tune segment and be ok. My current understanding is that free software exists (I haven't actually played with any myself yet, but I've heard of TunerPro, WinOLS, etc. and I see you maintain VW_Flash, very cool) but then the user needs to know how to create a custom tune from scratch, no free and widely used "off the shelf" / "staged" files floating around for common cars (the main value proposition of APR, EQT, IE, UM, etc.), correct?

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